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Instead of trying to give any sort of reasoning to support this standard, I have decided to use a lot of exclamation points, which makes my assertion invulnerable to counter-argument. It is one of the things I learned on the Internet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let us see how this standard works in practice:
Arguably, this definition of science fiction is too broad, for it allows over the threshold many books that do not contain a beautiful space princess.
So if we examine the list we have here developed, we can see which of them qualifies, under the Space Princess standard.
PRINCESS OF MARS? Deja Thoris. Bingo. THE WORM OROBOROS has Lady Prezmyra; FLASH GORDON has Princess Aura. LORD OF THE RINGS? Arwen is a princess, and Elbereth might be considered a princess. Close enough for government work. FOUNDATION by Asimov has a princess on the planet Kolvin who comes on stage. DUNE has Princess Irulan. The ROCKETEER has a scene where Jennifer Connelly is DRESSED as a princess, so I still think this counts. Also, while the Ang Lee movie THE HULK, the movie A BEAUTIFUL MIND and CAREER OPPORTUNITIES do not exactly have space rockets in them, the Hulk can jump a long way, and John Forbes Nash is almost as smart as Richard Seaton or Hari Seldon. In any case, they also have Jennifer Connelly in them, so these all should count as SF. However, 2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY does not have a princess in it, and neither does DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, so we have to categorize these as mainstream films.
I think this standard works very well! Call your local bookstore and have them move all those books by Clarke and Bradbury and Zelazny, Jules Verne and Walter Gibson in with the Whodunnnits and Romances.
Next up: why no movie can really be a Western without a giant steam-powered spider driven by Kenneth Branaugh.
- HG Wells' THE TIME MACHINE? Not SF!
- FIRST MEN IN THE MOON? SF!
- ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU? Not SF!!!
- J.R.R. Tolkien LORD OF THE RINGS? SF! (Earendil flies an orbiter to Venus. Well, its a sailing ship, and it turns into the planet Venus, but close enough).
- E.R. Eddison's THE WORM OROBOROS? SF!!!!! (Lesseingham flies to Mercury in a primitive biological space-vessel-- erm. Well, he flies in a dream in a chariot pulled by hippogriffs, so that almost counts.)
- A PRINCESS OF MARS? SF !!!!!!!! (John Carter travels to Mars in a Saturn V rocket. Except, without the rocket. By astral projection, after death. So that is almost like a Goddard rocket. Almost).
- STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND? SF!!!!!!!!!!!! (Herman the Martian flies to Earth from Mars, except his name is Mike, not Herman.)
- GLORY ROAD? or what about DOOR INTO SUMMER? Not SF! The movie METROPOLIS? Not SF! The serial FLASH GORDON? SF! See? This standard works for all uncertain cases. SUPERMAN? SF! It has a rocket in it!! A space rocket!
- NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR? I don't see a space rocket anywhere. BRAVE NEW WORLD? Hah!
- NINE PRINCES IN AMBER? Not SF!! Where is Corwin's rocket!? He needs a rocket for it to be SF!
- The movie APOLLO THIRTEEN? SF! THE RIGHT STUFF? SF! DOCTOR NO?! It's got a space shot in it! And so does AUSTIN POWERS!!!! For that matter, THE ROCKETEER does not have a space rocket in it, but it stars Jennifer Connelly, so I think it should count anyway. JANES ROCKETRY REPORT - Precision guided news and analysis? Google Driving Directions to Cape Kennedy? Clear SF!!!! It is all SF!!!
Arguably, this definition of science fiction is too broad, for it allows over the threshold many books that do not contain a beautiful space princess.
So if we examine the list we have here developed, we can see which of them qualifies, under the Space Princess standard.
PRINCESS OF MARS? Deja Thoris. Bingo. THE WORM OROBOROS has Lady Prezmyra; FLASH GORDON has Princess Aura. LORD OF THE RINGS? Arwen is a princess, and Elbereth might be considered a princess. Close enough for government work. FOUNDATION by Asimov has a princess on the planet Kolvin who comes on stage. DUNE has Princess Irulan. The ROCKETEER has a scene where Jennifer Connelly is DRESSED as a princess, so I still think this counts. Also, while the Ang Lee movie THE HULK, the movie A BEAUTIFUL MIND and CAREER OPPORTUNITIES do not exactly have space rockets in them, the Hulk can jump a long way, and John Forbes Nash is almost as smart as Richard Seaton or Hari Seldon. In any case, they also have Jennifer Connelly in them, so these all should count as SF. However, 2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY does not have a princess in it, and neither does DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, so we have to categorize these as mainstream films.
I think this standard works very well! Call your local bookstore and have them move all those books by Clarke and Bradbury and Zelazny, Jules Verne and Walter Gibson in with the Whodunnnits and Romances.
Next up: why no movie can really be a Western without a giant steam-powered spider driven by Kenneth Branaugh.
July 27 2007, 16:27:05 UTC 4 years ago
(And one might even make a case for Dara.)
July 27 2007, 17:48:56 UTC 4 years ago
All Roads Lead To...
Just discovered that my favorite motto was once Roman. Apparently, All Roads (once lead) To Rome.Kind of reminds me of the moment when I found out that there was a movie called The Guns of Navarone (a good movie) and went...oh! That's what Zelazny was riffing!
July 27 2007, 17:53:10 UTC 4 years ago
Re: All Roads Lead To...
Just discovered that my favorite motto was once Roman. Apparently, All Roads (once lead) To Rome.When we learn to build trans-oceanic roads this will once again be true, unless we've started building roads on other planets (unless we have the Galaxy Express!) :)
July 28 2007, 20:53:04 UTC 4 years ago
Re: All Roads Lead To...
Pedantry alert!I, too, assumed the motto was Roman, maybe a fragment from Plautus or some such, like those from Menander whose original contexts you uncovered, lo, more than twenty years ago. However (tamen!), a doctor came into the library where I work, & asked me the source--Latin, yes, but Roman, no--best as I could ascertain, Twelfth Century & French--the most compact description:
I tried, of course, to find a local copy of Liber parabolorum, to verify the quotation, but none was to hand.
July 27 2007, 16:29:32 UTC 4 years ago
This reminds me of the games I used to play as a kid.
Michael (a childhood friend): "Look there's monsters coming over the hill!" Me: "Never fear, I'll put up my force field that protects me from all attacks!"
Michael: "Cheater!"
"Next up: why no movie can really be a Western without a giant steam-powered spider driven by Kenneth Branaugh."
lol
July 27 2007, 16:30:52 UTC 4 years ago
July 27 2007, 16:50:18 UTC 4 years ago
1. It's on Mars. Spaceships took the humans there.
2. The young Martian talks about the beautiful woman in the cities of his time.
See, it counts! *shoves Martian Chronicles back into SF where it belongs*
July 27 2007, 20:42:07 UTC 4 years ago
pwned!!!!
Normally, it would count, except that you only used one exclamation point, and did not use all caps for any word; looking carefully, I do not see anywhere that you say you "pwned" me for my n00b3i ski1z -- which would have meant, by the rules of the Internet, that you made your point and won your argument.Instead you use evidence to fit a definition, submit what amounts to a reasoned proof to prove your point, and attempt to appeal to reason. This is not the way of the Internet. Get with the Information Age! The Age of Reason is over!
July 27 2007, 21:24:17 UTC 4 years ago
Re: pwned!!!!
True: But I only see one exclamation point in your rebuttal!Ha!!! I w1n!!!!!!!!
Bradbury's MAD SK1LLZORS remain triumphant!!!!!!
July 28 2007, 00:42:30 UTC 4 years ago
Re: pwned!!!!
No no, it doesn't work that way. You don't pwn someone *for* thier n00b sk1llz, why would I want n00bz0r sk1llz when I already have 1337 sk1llZ?You pwn n00bs *with* l33t sk1LLz.
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July 27 2007, 16:57:57 UTC 4 years ago
I guess it depends on what you mean by "involve." Quite a bit of the Amber series happens on earth, post-Apollo.
A question for you Amberites: am I remembering correctly that shadow walking can allow someone to travel spatially, not just, uh, shadow-ly? That is, Corwin can move off of shadow Earth, shadow walk around, and then shadow walk back to a different part of Earth, right? So, in theory, he could get a spacesuit and shadowwalk to Mars if he wished, right? Awesome.
July 27 2007, 17:50:54 UTC 4 years ago
Princes on the Moon
But no rockets, per se.First thing John did when he was playing a Prince of Amber was shadowwalk to the Moon. (Come to think of it, it was the original incarnation of Amelia Windrose who did that.)
July 27 2007, 17:52:48 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Princes on the Moon
Well, earth, post-Apollo, did have rockets, is my point, though they didn't figure in the story.4 years ago
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July 27 2007, 17:11:15 UTC 4 years ago
Oh I see...
Romance then. He kisses Cho. And then he kisses Ginny...
Adultery romance?
July 27 2007, 17:49:20 UTC 4 years ago
Note: this is not to denigrate the series. I am a huge Potter fan.
July 27 2007, 17:52:37 UTC 4 years ago
A teacher as mean and unfair as Snape was apparently par for the course.
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July 27 2007, 17:54:51 UTC 4 years ago
Since my childhood I was told that SF was "something that doesn't exist" and just very recently I became aware that SF has, indeed, an "S" in there.
Even so, can Harry Potter be considered at least "Fiction"? If so, is Fantasy a part of Fiction or is it two completely different things?
I really need to review my concepts.
;)
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July 27 2007, 18:00:34 UTC 4 years ago
The Night Land? Not SF!
By the way, when is the rest of your Night Lands story gonna git published?
July 27 2007, 18:04:11 UTC 4 years ago
BTW, anyone who watches B5: in the episode Deconstruction of Falling Stars, there's a sequence 500 years from the events of B5. It takes place in a monastery. Anyone else think this scene was directly referencing Canticle? Or is that just me?
July 27 2007, 18:12:17 UTC 4 years ago
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July 27 2007, 18:02:03 UTC 4 years ago
No Lensmen?
Not a single princess I can remember, but plenty of bare-midriffed women.Illona of Lonabar !!!!!! (I can add more ! if you like)
July 27 2007, 18:42:06 UTC 4 years ago
Re: No Lensmen?
Since you have typed more than five exclamation points, I cannot possibly produce a counter-argument. That is simply the way the Internet works. If you had typed in all caps, the effect would have been the same.I don't remember any princesses per se in Lensmen, but in Skylark, Sitar (Dunark of Osnome's wife) is not only a space-princess, but also a nudist, which is par for the course for SF.
In HG Wells' MEN LIKE GODS, the Utopians are nudists. The Amazons of Lonabar in SECOND STAGE LENSMEN are nudists. The futuristic anarchists of Niven's ANARCHY PARK are nudists. Practically everyone in Robert Heinlein is a nudist, from DT Burroughs to Mike the Martian.
This is perfectly cromulent SFnial thinking. We wear less clothing than the Victorians, ergo our children will wear less than we do.
Since everyone from the future is really good-looking, why not? (See, for example, Lt. Uhura or Mad Max, depending on whether the future is bright or dark.)
July 27 2007, 18:49:16 UTC 4 years ago
Re: No Lensmen?
Dunark is simply maskerading as Marc C. Duquesne, who was actually killed by the Fenacrone, but I digress.My basic principle: 99.99% (Or more) of the population should never be seen naked by anyone. I support good mental health.
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July 28 2007, 00:44:24 UTC 4 years ago
Walter Gibson? Are any of his books still in print?
If you meant William Gibson, well... he qualifies! At least a portion of NEUROMANCER took place on an L5 space colony (and on a station full of Rastafarians). Don't know about any of his other novels; NEUROMANCER was enough to burn me out on cyberpunk- and enough to tell me that the mighty Neal Stephenson had pretty much closed the door on the genre with SNOW CRASH...
Hmm... Stephenson... definitely not Sci-Fi. I can't remember any of his books even mentioning a spaceship. His DIAMOND AGE is conspicuously missing any space travel, commercial or otherwise... even though Stephenson himself is obviously an enthusiast of the idea, given his involvement in Blue Origin...
So Gibson stays: Stephenson goes. Which officially proves my earlier points that there is no justice in the world. ;)
July 30 2007, 17:09:27 UTC 4 years ago