John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2007-08-08 14:34:00
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What book could you not finish?

People who do not want to read a curmudgeon being curmudgeonly, go away. This is not a review or a philosophical analysis. No attempt at balance or fairness has been made: the following consists of merely a description of negative reactions. These are some books I just could not finish.

I am only going to list books that I thought I would like and that I really, really wanted to like, and that I could not finish.

Please note that these reasons are all questions of personal taste and preference, not something the author could have guessed beforehand and written to avoid. Books of this quality do not have flaws; they merely do not reach all audiences. This is a case where the book reached toward me, but my palms were sweaty, and the grip failed to hold.  

PERDIDO STREET STATION by China Me Evil-- perfectly well written book, imaginative, very dark.

Why could I not finish? I could not finish it because there was simply too much shit in the book. I mean that literally, the s-word appeared at least once per page. Being a father of three children, and have changed a tolerable number of poopy diapers in my life, the constant reference to scat bored and annoyed me.

Also, hated all the characters and wanted them to die. 

SYSTEM OF THE WORLD by Neal Stephenson-- again, perfectly well written book, at places shot through with genius, flights of wordsmithing that were a delight.

Why could I not finish? I could not finish the book because there were simply too many dicks in it. I do not mean annoying characters, I mean characters who either talked about their penises, or had penis wounds, or dropped their trousers and pulled out their penises, or what not. When William of Orange, a man of all men in history I most admire for his character, drops his trousers and forces a kneeling captive girl to perform a Bill Clinton on him, my threshold of toleration for the number of dicks onstage had been exceeded. Not to mention my displeasure at the anachronistic insult to this historical figure.

ILIUM by Dan Simmons – I cannot believe I could not finish this book. If ever there was a book designed by the Muses of the Hippocrene for me and me alone, this was it. This book was designed for me to love it. A posthuman mystery, a mediation on the nature of the human condition, classical themes, Greek Gods, and the absolute, top-flight best portrayal of John Donne's Caliban one could hope for. It even starred my favorite wizard, Prospero, who, in my opinion is the Best Wizard of All Time (in your face, Merlin! You too, Atlante!)

Why? This one was harder to explain. More than halfway through, I lost faith in the author. I was deep into the second volume of this big-as-War-and-Peace tome, and I was still waiting for something to get started. None of the characters, even when I was halfway through the second book, had yet to engage me: none of the plots showed any sign of any resolution, and I had yet to see how any of the plot threads were going to make it back to some sort of resolution. Sometimes you can get a feeling that an author has let the reigns slip, and the book is careening out of control toward a cliff. I read a reviewer whose taste and judgment I admire, and said, in effect, that my hunch was right, that the plot was never going to come together in a satisfactory way.

I had faith in the reviewer but not in the author. Why? Because of 'no clues.' By the time the reader is more than three fourths of the way through the narrative, there have to at least be some clues, or red herrings, or something, pointing to how the questions raised by the plot were going to be resolved. There has to be some little things that do not fit, so that you know once everything fits together, the various irregular jigsaw-parts will click into place with a satisfactory click. Here there was nothing.

For example, the character of Odysseus, one of my favorite of all characters in all literature, here shows up in post-historical Far Future world. He is surrounded with mysteries. How did he arrive at the place were the heroes found him? What is his mission? What does he want? What is he fleeing, or what is he seeking? But if the character has been onstage for over a hundred pages, and there has not yet been a single clue, not even a false clue, then there is no way for the reader to be surprised when the answer turns out to be something other than what first seemed to be the case, because there is no first case. It was not as if there were three possible origins for Odysseus, and we had to figure out one of them. There was nothing. He was simply onstage, going along with the heroes, doing nothing, adding nothing much to the action. When the action did crop up, it happened offstage. The major battle between the mysterious nonhuman robots and the mysterious posthuman eloi, which could have been the central set-piece of a Edgar Rice Burroughs novel, is just referred to in passing. If the bronze-age military virtues of the King of Ithaca were supposed to have some effect on the outcome of the Eloi-Robot raid, it was not in evidence.  

And, of all things, Odysseus, the only man in all of ancient literature it is really easy to likeI mean, come on, he wants to go home! Dorothy Gale understands that motive!even Odysseus is unlikable. He is described only in passing, showing no emotion. We have nothing from his point of view.

The scholar Hockenby has no motive for what he does, even though, at first, I was fascinated by the concept of what he was doing.

The Eloi fellow whose name I forget should have been interestinghe was a mild-mannered man from Utopia, thrown into a life-or-death struggle and must rise to the occasion; but there is no thought behind his actions. He is not up to anything. He simply reacts, or when he did act, his acts made no sense to me.

And then there were the poetry-loving robots from Saturn. I never wanted what they wanted, or knew what they knew, or saw how or what their goals were.

Too bad. If I had found even one of the characters lovable, or even likable, I would have slogged on through to the end.

Really too bad. I know this author has the knack, has the spark, to be able to make characters loveable-- the mad poet in HYPERION, the old man whose daughter grew younger every day, the girl detective, Aenea in ENDYMION, the Shepherd who becomes her unwilling disciple, the evil Swiss Guard super-soldier: all these were great characters. I know Simmons can do it.

One final complaintI did not like the way the Gods talked. Too much swearing. Too much potty language. I realize and admire what the author was trying to do: he was trying to strip the tyrants of Olympos of their mythic Homeric distance. If you read Homer and see what these beings actually said and really did, and you cast the same into non-poetical, non-elevated speech, you will glimpse what terrifying creatures they actually would be, seen at close range. The author here parted the mists of poetry and time and dragged the sons of the Titans into the sunlight, warts and all. But I did not like it. I think even Mars has a good side. Bloodthirsty killer, yes, coward, perhaps: but if I were portraying Mars I would give him at least one admirable trait. Maybe he loves his mother.

THE WHEEL OF TIME by Robert Jordon -- I was crushed on the Wheel of Time like a hindoo sacrifice being crushed by the great god Juggernaut.

Why could I not finish? This one is also hard to explain. The characters theoretically should have been a lovable as the picked-upon orphan-boy in HARRY POTTER, or the smart-but-shy Hermione. I mean, come on, a farm boy with a dread destiny, his honest blacksmith friend, and their friend who is good with dice. Not to mention Aes Sedai and way-cool ninja swordfighting moves and magical gateways and Dark Lords galore. But it never clicked with me: I was slogging halfway through the fifth or sixth book (yes, I stayed with it that long) when I realized that I wanted the main character to die because he was out of his mind, I wanted the gambler fellow to die because he was turning all dark and crooked, and I did not care of the blacksmith fellow lived or died, because he was spinning his wheels not doing much of anything. Somewhere along the way, I had lost all sympathy for all the heroes and all their goals--if they had goals. I mean, I had clambered up a mountain of thousands of gray pages, and I was still waiting for that "Council of Elrond" moment when Some Wise Mage tells Frodo-lite what the quest is. No one seemed to be doing anything and no one had a plan. And I wanted all of them to die.

Now, in all fairness, this last might not have been a fault of the author. I am a cruel and sadistic man, like many readers, and I only read when I am a foul mood, either right before a gladiatorial game or an afternoon of kitten-stomping. So maybe it is just me.

But Rand-al'Thor really did get on my nerves after a while. He seemed a character simply too small for the role. If Ranma Soatome has been the Dragon of that world, the Dark Lord Bumbershoot (or whatever his name was) would have at least been booted in the head before five books ground wearily by. If Paul Mu'ad-Dib had been the dragon, by then would have at least disrupted the spice production. SOMETHING would have happened.

DUNE sequels. Well, I could not get past DUNE MESSIAH, CHILDREN OF DUNE, CHILDREN OF THE MESSIAH OF DUNE, RETURN OF THE BRIDE OF THE CHILDREN OF DUNE'S MESSIANIC RETURN. Bleh. I gave up on the series right after Leto turns into a Sandworm.

DUNE is maybe the best SF book ever. This is because, unlike any other book of its time, and unlike far too few books since, it had an overall idea and theme, a sense of history. The sequels were potboilers: the author revisiting a mined-out lode, having his characters run around with nothing to do. The space-Greek Empire has fallen to the space-Jihad: all the gene breeding programs of the witches have culminated. What are you going to do to top that?

GORMENGHAST by Mervin Peake. What I would not give to have the hours I wasted trying to plow through this tepid piece of pretentious trash back.

It is a book of hate, written by an Englishman who seeks to mock the class system and ritualism of England. Well, first, I am an American, so what do I care if you Brits hate each other? Second, I have seen the same condemnations of human pomposity and class-folly done better, and with with and imagination, by Jack Vance. Third, listening to anyone merely pick at the scabs of this festering hate is unpleasant at best, even when his foes and his faction are also yours. When his foes are meaningless to you, or his faction from another hemisphere, it is like listening to a crazy old lady on the bus, who is rocking back and forth, her yellow eyes unfocused, muttering about how her husband from six decades ago wronged her; and she lists his every flaw for you, even though you never met him.

Why in the world is GORMANGHAST even considered a fantasy book? How in the world did it creep into our section of the bookstore? The only element even slightly fantastical is the sheer grotesqueness of the characters, the sheer size of the giant, moldering castle.

This book personally offends me. Back in the day, back in the Time of Lin Carter, there were only a handful of fantasy books, and we all read all the same ones because that was all that there were. Somehow this ill-smelling troll was shoved in to our small and beloved circle of books, and dropped it bloated three-volume buttocks into the seat next to Hope Mirrlees, William Hope Hodgson and Lord Dunsany. I wanted to like this book because it was the only fantasy book I could find one I had finished reading XICCARPH by Clark Ashton Smith.

E.R. Eddison, Mervin Peake is not. He is not even Edgar Allan Poe.

 




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[info]mommyjo2
2007-08-08 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I petered out on the Wheel of Time around book 4 or 5.
I'm not sure I should even admit this, but I have NEVER been able to get through the Foundation series. I've tried three times then gave the books away.

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[info]b0rg
2007-08-08 09:07 pm UTC (link)
I gave up in the middle of 10th or so... the only motivation behind last three of them was "I've got to finish what I've started!". Can tell you nothing of particular improtance happened in the next five books, and I got the strong feeling author liked the copy-paste feat of modern word processors...

not to mention starting "ulysses" 3 times and giving up on 10th page...

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-09 12:58 pm UTC (link)
You may be interested to know that the series gets interesting again by book 9. Yes books 5-7 are horrible, but the series picks up and gets good

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-08-10 11:08 am UTC
Dune Junior
[info]gray_roger
2007-08-08 07:38 pm UTC (link)
For sheer laughing-out-loudly, teeth clenchingly, stomach achingly bad writing, nothing can top the Dune prequel-sequels by Brian Herbert.

(Reply to this)


[info]princejvstin
2007-08-08 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I gave up on WOT after the first one.

Regarding Ilium and Olympos, I liked Ilium (because like you, this is a book that seems to be have written for me alone), but Olympos was a huge disappointment to me.

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[info]arhyalon
2007-08-08 10:34 pm UTC (link)
I believe John actually gave up during Olympos, too...but I could be wrong about that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

The crashing, crushing disappointment of Olympos - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 08:39 pm UTC
Re: The crashing, crushing disappointment of Olympos - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 08:53 pm UTC
Re: The crashing, crushing disappointment of Olympos - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-10 09:14 pm UTC
Re: The crashing, crushing disappointment of Olympos - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-11 03:23 pm UTC

[info]jordan179
2007-08-08 07:53 pm UTC (link)
PERDIDO STREET STATION by China Me Evil-- perfectly well written book, imaginative, very dark.

Why could I not finish? I could not finish it because there was simply too much shit in the book. I mean that literally, the s-word appeared at least once per page. Being a father of three children, and have changed a tolerable number of poopy diapers in my life, the constant reference to scat bored and annoyed me.


Heh, a literary spinoff of the problems of fatherhood. I'm hoping to be a father within a few years, and I have some experience with dirty diapers (having worked in day care for a short while when I was young), but I never thought of that effect of having children.

Also, hated all the characters and wanted them to die.

This sounds like a worse problem.

I've often felt that way with a lot of New Wave and Cyberpunk science fiction (I know that this was urban fantasy). The writer wants to make the protagonist and his friends "realistic" by loading them down with so many character flaws that they are basically not so much heroes as (perhaps) less-objectionable villains than the antagonists. The effect is as you said.

SYSTEM OF THE WORLD by Neal Stephenson-- again, perfectly well written book, at places shot through with genius, flights of wordsmithing that were a delight.

Why could I not finish? I could not finish the book because there were simply too many dicks in it. I do not mean annoying characters, I mean characters who either talked about their penises, or had penis wounds, or dropped their trousers and pulled out their penises, or what not.


That could be a problem. Philip Jose Farmer had a similar obsession in some of his writing, particularly in the (several) versions he did of Tarzan and Doc Savage.

I want to see the Hit Location Table that Stephenson used for this book :)

The bit about William of Orange sounds ahistorical, though I haven't studied his life in any detail. What I mostly remember about him was that he was a brave and greatly-admired man; molesting captive girls in such a manner would be an indication of lecherous cruelty, of which I have never heard him accused. I can see why this annoyed you.

There is a novel in which Winston Churchill (one of my personal heroes) has an assassin go about preserving a secret involving a warning of the Pearl Harbor attack by blowing up a Dutch submarine and murdering a British translator which bothered me in like wise. It was out of character, and unnecessary to keep the secret.

Ilium and Olympos I didn't find so bad. Hockenby reminded me of a L. Sprague de Camp character -- the Midwestern American academic thrown into an impossible and fantastic situation and conquering by means of intelligence, imagination and plain common sense. He and Walter Shea would have botten along just fine.

I never liked Ares. Not in the original myths, and not in any of the adaptations I've ever read. Even in ones where he was not an unsympathetic character (such as Disney's Hercules) he achieved this mostly through silence.

Never read The Wheel of Time. I've heard it's very long and doesn't really come to any point, not even sub-points. The author should have read Dray Prescott for clues on how to do a good long fantasy series.

I can think of useful questions unanswered by Dune and even the first trilogy, but the series left most of them unanswered, instead being mostly generic space opera.

Gormenghast really sucked. The third book is especially awful. For an example of a similar concept done right look at Stoddard's The High House.






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[info]baduin
2007-08-08 08:40 pm UTC (link)
Ares, the Destroyer of Cities, is not Mars and is not supposed to be sympathetic. Greeks hated him. At least one city kept a voodoo doll of him to bind him. (Voodoo dolls, called technically defixiones, were a Classical invention and have nothing to do with Africa.)

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/GP.html

This is similar to his imprisonment in a cauldron by Ephialtes and Otos.

Even in war, they distrusted him. When Ares possessed a fighter, he went berserk, breaking the battle-line - the worst crime in Greek military.

On the other hand, Arete means bravery and virtue. Ares was a patron of manly virtues.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

How to write a plot. First, throw a party.
[info]johncwright
2007-08-08 09:25 pm UTC (link)
"the Midwestern American academic thrown into an impossible and fantastic situation and conquering by means of intelligence, imagination and plain common sense..."

Sure, but what was Hockenbury UP TO? What was he trying to accomplish? Why would he prefer one result of the War of Troy over another? Was he trying to escape from the dominion of the Gods? If so, what was his plan?

I was hundreds of pages -- hundreds! -- and any reader should have been able to answer those questions.

Let us compare and contrast: In Chapter One of LORD OF THE RINGS, we are presented one page one with a mystery: why is Mr. Ordinary Gentry With Strange Background so rich and so youthful? The gaffers think it aint natural. But surely Mr. Ordinary Gentry With Strange Background did not dabble in anything that smacks of Black Magic, did he? For that will draw down the Doom that follows Those Who Meddle with High Matters. By Chapter Two of LORD OF THE RINGS, you know what the McGuffin is, why the Black Hats want it, and, even if you don't know where or how the funny little barefoot munchkin is going to get rid of it, you know the basic idea-- he has to get rid of the most important treasure in the world, because if he uses it, it will eat his mind.

My friends, that is classical, grade-A well constructed storytelling. You start with the small and ordinary, and the bigger, badder, darker world starts to intrude. You lead the reader from one mystery (Why is Bilbo so young looking? Taint natural! And Goody Gargle says he see'd a tree-man walking up by the North woods, walking, says I!!) to the next (Frito, this ring holds the plans to the Death Star. The German High Command will stop at nothing to get it! Oh, and it is radioactive.) to the next, and you increase the power and the scope of the drama at each step (Frodo! You must go to planet Iskandar, in order to recover the Cosmo DNA! Otherwise the Earth is doomed! HURRY STAR BLAZERS! YOU ONLY HAVE EIGHTY-ONE DAYS LEFT!)

Compare that to Hockenbury. What was his plan? What was the plot? Where was he trying to go? What did he want to get back to?

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Re: How to write a plot. First, throw a party. - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-08 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2007-08-08 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-09 01:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]princejvstin, 2007-08-08 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-09 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-08 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-08 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-08 11:38 pm UTC
Dune - [info]catholicteacher, 2007-08-09 05:43 pm UTC
Re: Dune - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 11:00 pm UTC
Re: Perdido Street Station - [info]pithhelmet, 2007-08-09 04:05 am UTC
Re: Perdido Street Station - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 11:06 pm UTC

[info]randallsquared
2007-08-08 08:17 pm UTC (link)
I recently failed to get through _Rollback_, by Sawyer. Even the promise of finding out what the alien message was about couldn't keep me slogging through what seemed to be the inevitable disintegration of the main character's marriage.

So, what novels have you read which you rushed eagerly through, even though the writing and editing were terrible? I haven't finished it, yet, but _A Lodging of Wayfaring Men_ has kept me interested even though the editing, writing, and even the typesetting are uniformly horrible.

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[info]johncwright
2007-08-08 09:28 pm UTC (link)
"So, what novels have you read which you rushed eagerly through, even though the writing and editing were terrible?"

Er.... all of them.

I read pulp. I have a stack of SHADOW novels by Maxwell Grant so high. Doc EE Smith is a giant in the field, but he is an unsightly giant: he is not going to win any rewards for his Shakespearian grace of prose. His prose is so purple it is in the near ultra-violent.

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[info]kalquessa
2007-08-08 08:58 pm UTC (link)
I heartily agree re. Wheel of Time. Never have I wished more for a planet-sized piano to be dropped on the entire cast of a book or series. I'm afraid I read all the way up to the seventh or eight book. Days and hours that i will never get back.

And I lost interest somewhere in the beginning of the second Dune sequel. Dune itself was excellent. Dune Messiah was pretty interesting, if not quite as keen. Children of Dune, or what little I read of it, left me cold.

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[info]lordbrand
2007-08-08 09:11 pm UTC (link)
all the women were irredeemable I thought as well.

Now I'm worried that George R.R. Martin is losing his way - A Feast for Crows seemed to suffer from some of the same aimlessness. I've seen a lot of apologists for it, but I'm a tad concerned.

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(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-08 10:37 pm UTC

[info]lordbrand
2007-08-08 09:09 pm UTC (link)
GREAT critique of the Wheel books. I wholeheartedly agree...

And you're sadly right on Ilium...it just went no where...it finished with less of a satisfying wrap-up than Tad Williamson's OtherWorld books - and what a bang those started with!

Simmon's book The Terror was far better.

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[info]johncwright
2007-08-08 09:29 pm UTC (link)
I got all the way to the end of OTHERWORLD. It did not wrap up together was well as I would have liked, but it was not bad.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]oscillon, 2007-08-08 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-08 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 03:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 01:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]king_smeagol, 2007-08-09 03:58 pm UTC

[info]dirigibletrance
2007-08-08 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Once I could have listed the Urth saga by Gene Wolfe in this category, however, I have recently picked it up again and am enjoying it alot more this time. I fished Shadow, and am about halfway through Claw now.

I found that once I put myself in a properly patient and retrospective state of mind, I enjoyed them much more.

"Queen City Jazz" by Kathleen Anne Goonan is a book that I've never been able to finish. It was just too random and annoying.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Gene Wolfe is the Master
[info]johncwright
2007-08-09 01:23 pm UTC (link)
The Urth saga is really, really worth reading. I like not start to like the series until the second book, SWORD OF THE LICTOR.

(sigh) I recall the days when I was willing to read a book and a half before deciding whether to like a story or not. Now I am lucky if I have time to read twenty pages before making the decision.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Queen City Jazz -- You're Not Missing Anything - (Anonymous), 2007-08-10 11:27 am UTC
Couldn't finish
[info]juliet_winters
2007-08-08 09:27 pm UTC (link)
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

I'm being lazy here and reprinting a review I did for our library's Web site:
Review: This extremely lengthy book just didn't fulfill the promise for me of good storytelling. The plot, such as it is, inches forward, the characters show little development, and there really can be such a thing as too many footnotes. Oh, the footnotes are often more interesting than the book itself, but is that really a good thing? A likeness to Dickens is not entirely inappropriate, but please remember that for much of his career, Dickens was paid by the word.

I was hoping for something with the historic character sensibility of Austen or Bronte, the cleverness of Terry Pratchett, and the storyscape of a good military yarn. Clearly I expected too much.

If you'd like a touch of authentic period horror, may I would suggest The Vampire by John Polidori? Polidori was Byron's doctor and was part of the infamous storytelling session that also produced Frankenstein.

If you're yearning for a lengthy, gripping Napoleonic military history, albeit a factual one, try Swords Around a Throne by John R. Elting. As for period conspiracy theory/magical mysteries, try The List of Seven by Mark Frost.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Couldn't finish
[info]arhyalon
2007-08-08 10:39 pm UTC (link)
I must say that I did finish Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell -- and I REALLY liked it...but it took over 260 pages to get into it, and you kind of have to work the ending out for yourself. Other than that, though, I enjoyed it quite a bit, which is rather odd, because very few of the characters were likable.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Couldn't finish - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-08 11:33 pm UTC
Re: Couldn't finish - [info]juliet_winters, 2007-08-08 11:49 pm UTC
Re: Couldn't finish - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:13 am UTC
Re: Couldn't finish - [info]king_smeagol, 2007-08-09 03:57 pm UTC
Re: Couldn't finish - [info]juliet_winters, 2007-08-09 04:20 pm UTC
Definitely the Wheel of Time
[info]deiseach
2007-08-08 10:02 pm UTC (link)
I am in awe of those of you who managed to stick it out for five books; those who went so far as seven are obviously suicidally brave, you magnificent lunatics!


Basically, by book three, the terminal stupidity of the characters annoyed me to the extent that I stopped half-way through (and I've managed to grimly slog my way to the end of books I've disliked before).

It's very bad when you find yourself desperately hoping the Most Despicable Horrible Nasty Mean Evilness of All Evilness will turn up and do horrible things to the heroes, and never mind the happy frolicking peasants who are innocently and ignorantly going about their lives of happy frolicking peasanthood who will be utterly and completely stomped should the Most Despicable pitch up in the neighbourhood.

It's even worse when you find yourself fantasizing about exactly what horrible things he can do to the heroes in vivid and elaborate detail :-)

Too many characters, not enough plot and a curiously vague world - so generic that I found it hard to remember exactly where they came from and where they were heading, apart from the Stock Small Town, the Stock Mysterious Forest, the Stock Ancient Cult Headquarters, and so on. So he had to keep his characters running about all over his invented world, introducing yet more extraneous characters to interact with his main ones (and their sidekicks, and their sidekick's chambermaid's third cousin) and keep the characters from ten minutes' conversation with one another, which would have cleared up much of the unnecessary obfuscation, which would have meant sparing us the angst!doom!fearful fates befalling the heroes!corruption of innocence! and actually, y'know, brought the Good Guys face-to-face with the Big Bad Nasty Villain sometime before the heatdeath of the universe.

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Re: Definitely the Wheel of Time
(Anonymous)
2007-08-09 12:38 am UTC (link)
It's even worse when your wandering fantasies are BETTER than the storyline that actually got published.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Definitely the Wheel of Time - [info]vitruvian23, 2007-08-09 02:46 pm UTC
Re: Definitely the Wheel of Time - [info]vitruvian23, 2007-08-09 02:47 pm UTC
Oh! "Foucault's Pendulum"! - [info]deiseach, 2007-08-09 06:26 pm UTC
Re: Oh! "Foucault's Pendulum"! - [info]vitruvian23, 2007-08-09 06:36 pm UTC
Re: Oh! "Foucault's Pendulum"! - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-09 09:35 pm UTC

[info]saintjoi
2007-08-08 10:16 pm UTC (link)
Well, I have yet to finish Worm Ourobourous, but I'm partway through and still pushing onward. It's excellent, just a little tough to read.

Agreed on the Dune sequels. Dune is fantastic, but everything goes downhill from there.

Also agree don Wheel of Time. Never even fininshed the third chapter of book 1. Never found anything of interest.

Elf Queen of Shannara. I mostly like the Shannara stuff (though some books better than others), but I never can seem to finish this one. I keep getting bored.

Faerie Queene. But then, I don't think I know ANYONE who's read the whole thing...

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[info]arhyalon
2007-08-08 10:41 pm UTC (link)
I read at the speed of greased lightning (or I used to) and it took me a month of solid reading, back in college when I had a lot of time, to get through The Worm Ouroborous.

But it was really good! It was worth the effort. It just took effort, like hiking up a really high mountian.

I even named my son after Lord Juss.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-08 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-09 01:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-09 03:05 pm UTC
Classics jokes - [info]catholicteacher, 2007-08-09 05:59 pm UTC
Re: Classics jokes - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-09 06:33 pm UTC
Re: Classics jokes - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-09 09:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-08-10 11:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-10 12:05 pm UTC
Groan and gasp.
[info]arhyalon
2007-08-08 10:33 pm UTC (link)
I actually read all three Mervin Peake books at a tender age of something like twelve or fifteen.

I, too, wish I could take those hours back.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Groan and gasp.
[info]lordbrand
2007-08-09 02:14 am UTC (link)
I felt that way about much of Silverberg's Valentine Pontifax.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Groan and gasp. - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:16 am UTC
Re: Groan and gasp. - [info]baduin, 2007-08-09 05:39 am UTC
Re: Groan and gasp. - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 01:27 pm UTC
Re: Thanks for the warning - [info]catholicteacher, 2007-08-09 06:08 pm UTC
Re: Thanks for the warning - [info]arhyalon, 2007-08-09 08:42 pm UTC
Re: Thanks for the warning - [info]baduin, 2007-08-10 12:40 am UTC
Re: Sickness? - (Anonymous), 2007-08-10 03:01 pm UTC
Re: Sickness? - [info]baduin, 2007-08-10 05:48 pm UTC

[info]oscillon
2007-08-08 10:45 pm UTC (link)
Starfarers - Poul Anderson
Didn't like any of the characters, the plot turns were so telegraphed that there was no surprise, it just dragged on and on. I picked that one up because someone here recomended Anderson; you owe me a refund, whoever you are. Actually, if someone has another recomendation for Anderson with a specific title I would try him again, such is his reputaion.

Gravity's Rainbow - Thomas Pynchon
I have tried it twice, never got past page 200. It is a rare thing for me to reread the last few pages I just read several times, not just for understanding but because they were so well written. This happened so many times I was not getting through the book. I'll be back.

Schrodinger's Cat - Robert Anton Wilson
I enjoyed the Illuminatus book a lot. It was often silly, annoying, frustrating but ultimately worth the trouble. Schrodinger's Cat was a disaster. All dislikeable characters, nonsense, never got anywhere. Uhhgg! All the bad parts of the Illuminatus without the fun.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lordbrand
2007-08-09 02:18 am UTC (link)
I feel the same way about Gravity's Rainbow except after reading it the first 100 pages a few times, I realized I'd rather be reading something else. He didn't make me care enough to continue. I have the same problem with Ulysses - why should I care about the language when I don't care about the story, the characters, or their conflicts? I'd rather just read an Eliot poem or something.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

HARVEST OF STARS - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 01:30 pm UTC
Re: HARVEST OF STARS - [info]vitruvian23, 2007-08-09 02:54 pm UTC
Re: HARVEST OF STARS - (Anonymous), 2007-08-10 11:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ndrosen, 2007-08-11 03:56 am UTC

[info]kokorognosis
2007-08-08 11:32 pm UTC (link)
The problem with the Wheel of Time is that all the books are the same. You have one thousand pages of:

Rand: "I wish I was as good with women as Matt."
Matt: "I wish I was as good with women as Perrin."
Perrin: "I wish I was as good with women as Rand."

The dark lord will mess with the weather, a Forsaken will die, and we'll repeat in the next volume.

I quit reading when I read a book where no Forsaken died and nothing happened; the item I was using as a counter (Only X forsaken left, so only X books!) was suddenly invalid.

As far as books I could never finish? DYING EARTH. 99% of self-contained, episodic-style fiction, be it TV or print, fails to capture my attention (I, Robot, being one of the few exceptions.). I made it about a book and a half before I burned out; the only story that stands out in my memory is the one where he eats the embodiment of TOTALITY inadvertantly.

ULLYSES was another one. It lost me completely around page 69.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]oscillon
2007-08-09 12:03 am UTC (link)
Dying Earth - I slugged through it all. It is very good in parts but I also have trouble with books that are obviously written as short stories. Hard to keep the "I care" level high enough. A lot of the old serialized stuff feels like that.
"the one where he eats the embodiment of TOTALITY inadvertantly."
I loved that one too. Actually, a lot of the stories had the same underlying absurd humor. I like the one where Cudgel bets he can cut off the passed out guy's beard.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-08-09 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-08-09 02:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-08-09 05:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-08-09 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordbrand, 2007-08-09 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2007-08-09 03:42 am UTC
Interesting
[info]quantanephilim
2007-08-09 02:39 am UTC (link)
Our literary tastes are shockingly similiar... I couldn't finish most of the same works, though for different reasons:

Perdido Street Station: I did finish it, but had it been a few hundred pages longer, I wouldn't have bothered. The characters were dull and unlikeable (I can't even remember any of their names, which is always a bad sign)... and Mieville can't write an action scene to save his life (As huge a Neal Stephenson fanboy as I am, I admit that he had the same problem, at least up until Cryptonomicon, but seemed to be aware of it- Mieville doesn't seem to have figured it out.) The second half of the book was essentially a boring, endless action/chase sequence, which I could barely slog through.

The Baroque Cycle: I didn't make it as far as you did. While the penis thing obviously didn't bother me, the basic dullness of the latter parts of Quicksilver turned me off to the whole series. It was essentially a "rogue's novel"- and it quickly became apparent that particular genre died for a reason. A little Shaftoe goes along way.

Wheel of Time: Gave up after the seventh book. Jordan wrote a magnificent trilogy- and then wrote seven more books. If only he had the sense to wrap up the story in three, perhaps WoT would be worth bothering with. At least I liked the characters- Rand is exactly how I would write a tortured messiah- he's Luke Skywalker with inner dialogue; Paul Atreides with emotions; Frodo Baggins with classical stature. Mat was a rogue the way a rogue should be done... and just sufficiently corrupt to be believable. Unfortunately, the world could hardly have been more dull. Nothing turns me off to a fantasy world faster than poorly rendered, uninteresting geography; I've been a maphound since an early age. The cultures were all essentially stereotypical personality traits made to reflect upon a whole culture; an overdone D&D world cliche. But, worst of all, the characters seemed to multiply infinitely. Even a literary mind that cut it's teeth on the Elvish Telephone Directory... erm... Silmarillion... has trouble keeping track of that many all-too-similiar characters. WoT was ultimately the most disappointing series that I've ever read. Such promise, lost.

Dune: I still have no idea why I couldn't get past Dune Messiah. Other than being distracted by poli sci finals and preferring to "tube out" on bad R.A. Salvatore pulp rather than read anything that might require a measure of thought... and losing interest in the Dune Mythos shortly after that. Having an endless reading list generally makes for books that end up falling to the bottom of the stack and being forgotten for years- or forever.

I have not read Gormenghast; perhaps I will pick up the BBC miniseries sometime. It looked to me like the book is to goths what Ulysses is to English majors; which, in other words, means it is a work I will probably never comprehend the popularity of.

So, Mr. Wright, you've told us the books that you couldn't get through; how about a list of the ones you couldn't put down? A rant deserves a rave, don't you think?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Interesting
[info]oscillon
2007-08-09 03:10 am UTC (link)
"As huge a Neal Stephenson fanboy as I am, I admit that he had the same problem,"
I still crack up at the 'Deliverator' scene at the begining of Snowcrash. That was pretty good action.
"I can't even remember any of their names, which is always a bad sign"
I can't remember the names of 90% of the characters in books while reading them. I constantly have to look for context to know who's being talked about. Have the same problem in real life. Serious handicap.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Interesting - [info]quantanephilim, 2007-08-09 03:28 am UTC
Re: Interesting - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 04:38 pm UTC
Re: Interesting - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-08-09 11:17 pm UTC
WOT seems to top the charts!
(Anonymous)
2007-08-09 05:00 am UTC (link)
Wheel of Time - I only got to book 7. I had a problem in trying to remember the sheer volume of people. Plus, as each new book came out, I had forgotten the whole of what went before (which should have clued me in that I wasn't forming any sort of attachment to the books) I had better things to do than reread every book before the next new one in order to remember what the heck it was all about.

Terry Goodkind lost my husband and I with the book that began with the 'evil chicken' in one of the Sword of Truth books (those are also going on wayyyyy too long). Here is this hot & fierce warrior babe, who leads a battle horseback ---- in the nude yet ----- and she's terrified of a - a - chicken? Just put the book down, honey, and no one will get hurt.

I should have put the Game of Thrones series down - flushed it down, actually. I liked the first book mostly, and had high hopes. I loved the wolf prince and his kids, and the idea of the "Long Mu" character nursing her dragons and her revenge. But it all kind of fell apart. I mean, he drags this teenage girl half way across the world for revenge against those who killed her family, she has a sicko-brother and a hunky-lusty husband who seems to love her in a way. She loses everyone she loves, gets to be Mum to a bunch of dragons - and raises an army, only to get to some little city miles away from her family's murders - and she quits! And another sweet but stupid little girl is married to this mean little midget and she escapes him only to end up in a tree house with a murderous pervert who once lusted after her dead mum. Any character I liked ended up milquetoast or just plain toast. Mr Martin also has this deep seated need to make sex an experience that is perverse, dirty, sickening and disgusting rather than beautiful and I had to skip whole swaths of most chapters (so maybe I didn't technically finish it all?). I wanted so badly to have something good happen to someone - anyone! - and the whole thing ended as a cynical pathetic time-wasting mess. (Did I mention I hated it and wish I had stopped reading it at the end of the first book?)

I tried to read 2001 a Space Odyssey (twice) and could not even get out of the monkey pages. I kept 'reading' and having no memory of what I just read because I began daydreaming instead of reading. Of course, that was 20 odd years ago, but my memory of being completely disconnected from the text makes me reach over it every time I'm at the library.

I began Ilium, and quit after the second chapter. It was too tedius.

I know there are other books I've never finished, but I can't remember them all. Probably some defense mechanism thingy.

- Ave

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: WOT seems to top the charts!
(Anonymous)
2007-08-09 01:10 pm UTC (link)
while books 5-8 are horrorific; things pick up in book 9 and very much in 11

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: WOT seems to top the charts! - (Anonymous), 2007-08-09 04:12 pm UTC
Re: WOT seems to top the charts! - [info]annafirtree, 2007-08-13 12:24 am UTC
Re: WOT seems to top the charts! - (Anonymous), 2007-08-09 05:48 pm UTC
am i a total loser or what?
(Anonymous)
2007-08-09 09:04 am UTC (link)
Believe it or not, this is a true story... I tried to read 'Fellowship of the Ring' as a teenager, and then later (at double the teenager age), and both times I got bored in the first 100 pages and quit. I saw the old Hobbit cartoon on TV but I haven't seen the newer movies.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: am i a total loser or what?
[info]johncwright
2007-08-09 01:39 pm UTC (link)
Not everyone is fitted for every book. There are books that are widely regarded as classics and wonders, for example, that merely bore and annoy me: ULYSSES by James Joyce, and BROTHERS KARAMATOV by Fyodor Dostoevsky, for example. They are written for an audience that excludes me; they appeal to a part of the soul I don't have. And yet there are people for whom these books are life-changing; their own personal Korans, that can only be picked up with kid gloves.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: am i a total loser or what? - (Anonymous), 2007-08-09 02:15 pm UTC
Re: am i a total loser or what? - [info]roundrockjoe, 2007-08-09 02:29 pm UTC
Warning: Don't Finish These
[info]gray_roger
2007-08-09 01:31 pm UTC (link)
WARNING: Don’t Finish These Series:

Asimov: FOUNDATIONS EDGE and later Foundation Books (Ill advised merger of two series, unconvincing)

Heinlein: TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE and later books (Carotid artery disease is a terrible thing)

Farmer: WORLD OF TIERS books after BEHIND THE WALLS OF TERRA
(note: these books inspired the far better AMBER books by Zelasny. Ah, but we did have fun with Kickaha, for a while)

Farmer: RIVERWORLD books after DARK DESIGN (Desperate Farmer failed to find the Big Finish)

Herbert: DUNE books after DUNE!

Norman: GOR books after OUTLAW OF GOR (Norman discovers S&M, alas)

Varley: Any series with RED in the title.

Robinson: Couldn’t finish MARS series. OK, I am convinced Marxism can only work on another planet.

Arthur C. Clarke: any sequels to RENDEVOUS WITH RAMA

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Warning: Don't Finish These
[info]starshipcat
2007-08-09 02:37 pm UTC (link)
Actually, the S&M was always in the Gor books, but up through Outlaw, Betty Ballantine was able to blue-pencil the worst excesses of it, so only a few hints remained for those who wanted to look for it. After that book, Norman became Too Big To Be Edited, and after a few go-rounds with Ms. Ballantine he went to DAW and Don Wollheim let him run wild until any semblance of plot and story vanished under the endless pages of lecture that weren't even funny any more.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]roundrockjoe, 2007-08-09 04:08 pm UTC
Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]gray_roger, 2007-08-09 05:12 pm UTC
He Got Bettah! - [info]juliet_winters, 2007-08-09 04:55 pm UTC
Re: He Got Bettah! - [info]gray_roger, 2007-08-09 05:02 pm UTC
Re: He Got Bettah! - [info]juliet_winters, 2007-08-09 06:04 pm UTC
Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 05:39 pm UTC
Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 05:40 pm UTC
Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]gray_roger, 2007-08-09 06:13 pm UTC
Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]jordan179, 2007-08-09 07:18 pm UTC
Re: Warning: Don't Finish These - [info]gray_roger, 2007-08-09 08:03 pm UTC

[info]juliet_winters
2007-08-09 02:57 pm UTC (link)
The book of Ezra particularly irked me...and most of the other women in fellowship class. Thank heaven we don't approach things that way any more. And, no, I certainly haven't read all of the Bible either, Joe. Just got done with Acts and Romans and starting 1 Corinthians.
I think it's also important to note that it is entirely possible to be too immature in your understanding at one point in your life to digest certain classics. I have no idea why high school English teachers think they have to push certain books at students before they have any grasp of life. For example (though it's not often taught) The Professor by Charlotte Bronte is considerably more meaningful after you've survived your 20s. And Hard Times is bewildering without maturity and cultural context.

I remember reading Exodus and smiling when Moses carped to God that he did not feel up to leading the people. He complained that they would not listen to him. He was not a good public speaker. God said fine then get your cousin Aaron to do it. Tell him what I tell you and let him tell the people.
I don't believe I would have caught God's patient but evident exasperation with Moses before becoming a parent.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

And vice versa
[info]roundrockjoe
2007-08-09 04:04 pm UTC (link)
I am told that if I go back and read Ordinary People or Lord of the Flies, I will not find them to be of the stature I found them to be when I was 16.

When I am tempted to think of Moses as a-historical, I go back and read how realistically he is depicted as a Perfectionist/Melancholic personality. My kids don't remind me of him at all---but my wife does.

Hey, I'm going to be leading a study of 1 Corinthians on Monday nights in Austin. Why don't you plan on jetting down?

-joe

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: And vice versa - [info]juliet_winters, 2007-08-09 04:24 pm UTC

[info]mrmandias
2007-08-09 03:54 pm UTC (link)
The Brothers Karamazov and War and Peace. Reason: I'm too American. About half way through both I threw the books and started screaming 'will one single person stop talking and DO SOMETHING SENSIBLE."

Martin, Song of Ice and Fire:
(1) the Starks got massacred and he tried to rehabilitate that villainous blond guy very unconvincingly and (2) the books kept going on and on.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2007-08-09 04:11 pm UTC (link)
I mean the Game of Thrones series, not Song of Fire and Ice specifically, which if I recall I decided not to read.

My idea is that I might read the series IF they actually wrap up and IF someone whose judgment I trust says its worth doing. Unfortunately it just occurred to me that I don't trust the literary judgment of anyone who thought it was worthwhile to keep reading the series.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-09 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2007-08-09 05:26 pm UTC
Russians - [info]catholicteacher, 2007-08-09 06:38 pm UTC
Re: Russians - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-09 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saintjoi, 2007-08-09 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ndrosen, 2007-08-11 04:22 am UTC

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