johncwright: Christian Ramadan

John C. Wright (

johncwright) wrote,
@ 2008-02-12 15:12:00

Christian Ramadan
Dutch Catholics have re-branded the Lent fast as the "Christian Ramadan" in an attempt to appeal to young people who are more likely to know about Islam than Christianity.

I am not making this up.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/12/wlent112.xml

(24 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	fpb 2008-02-12 08:41 pm UTC (link)
	I just commented on this in Jihadwatch. Look for "Paolo". (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Dhimmi watch memphis_aggie 2008-02-12 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	I found your comment (and it's a good one by the way) on "Dhimmi watch" (it's under the Jihad watch umbrella) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Dhimmi watch fpb 2008-02-13 05:38 am UTC (link)
	Oh, yeah, sorry. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mentalguy 2008-02-12 09:04 pm UTC (link)
	Although there's real risk of obscuring the origin of Lent, perhaps the comparision will at least encourage more serious observance. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mentalguy 2008-02-12 09:20 pm UTC (link)
	I suppose I'm too eager to see some positive side to this. Really, Lent can't be properly understood except in its relation to Easter. Calling it the "Catholic Ramadan" can only obscure that connection. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jordan179 2008-02-13 08:50 am UTC (link)
	Although there's real risk of obscuring the origin of Lent, perhaps the comparision will at least encourage more serious observance. Why? Are you arguing that Islam is an inherently more respectable religion than Christianity? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	howling_wolf 2008-02-13 04:50 pm UTC (link)
	I don't want Lent associated with anything the Jihad touches. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mentalguy
2008-02-13 08:28 pm UTC (link)

The typical contemporary Muslim is more serious about observing Ramadan than the typical contemporary Catholic is about observing Lent. That's an honest observation about problems with contemporary Catholics, not a testament to the greatness of Islam.

If comparing Lent to Ramadan shamed Catholics into approaching Lent more seriously, it'd be a small silver lining to what is otherwise a really stupid idea.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

extrarice
2008-02-12 09:21 pm UTC (link)

"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale - then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'" - 1984, George Orwell

Dangerous, dangerous thing for the Catholic Church to be doing...I wonder if the Vatican will have a statement about this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mentalguy
2008-02-12 10:01 pm UTC (link)

I wonder if the Vatican will have a statement about this.

Whether the Vatican would need to make one depends a great deal on whether the Vastenaktie campaign actually catches on and what the response of the Dutch Bishops is. At the moment it just appears to be an ill-advised marketing stunt on the part of a Danish Catholic charity which happened to get picked up on by the foreign press.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	howling_wolf 2008-02-13 04:51 pm UTC (link)
	The problem is, as with the See of Utrecht, many of these Dutch bishops feel themselves to be unbound to Rome. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	words and meaning oscillon 2008-02-12 09:37 pm UTC (link)
	Are we talking about 2 dutch catholics or all of them? Both realities qualify as "Dutch Catholics" so I guess the statement is accurate. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mentalguy 2008-02-12 09:45 pm UTC (link)
	In this case it appears to be the Dutch Catholic charity Vastenaktie which is attempting the "rebranding". (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	oscillon 2008-02-12 09:47 pm UTC (link)
	I bet thier marketing department thought this up. Marketing people are nuts. (Reply to this) (Parent)

eaquaelegit
2008-02-12 10:04 pm UTC (link)

I think they have a point that we don't celebrate Lent seriously enough. It's only in the past few years that Lent has taken on real, internal significance for me. For a lot of people, it's just something you do, and you don't even think much about it.

I admire Muslims who observe the whole of Ramadan. I find their dedication inspiring, and it's led to deeper devotion for me this season. If I were an independent observer and I were asked which group had "living faith," I doubt my answer would be the Catholics. If things have gotten to this point, maybe we should all be taking it as a slap in the face, a call to wake up. Our faith is alive, and we should be the ones showing everyone else how it's done.

(This post is not, by the way, an endorsement of the Dutch campaign, but more a reflection on some of the questions it raised in me.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Good point

johncwright
2008-02-13 05:21 pm UTC (link)

I am in agreement with the sentiment eqauaelegit expresses. When a Laodicean Christian who goes to Church once a week (or twice a year!) sees a faithful Mussulman who prays five times a day, we should quite rightly be shocked and shamed at the contrast.

I also don't endorse the Dutch campaign, but I do note that the popular press does not get up in arms when a military power is bombing during Lent, and I note that no one fears that the Christians will be outraged at the insult to our holy season.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	howling_wolf 2008-02-14 01:18 pm UTC (link)
	Don't lump all Catholics into one Dutch mold though. You want to see Lent observed with sheer religious devotion, just watch how it is observed in Latin America and the Philippines. Some folk in the latter even go so far as to have themselves crucified on Good Friday. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	juliet_winters 2008-02-12 10:55 pm UTC (link)
	They've really given up hope, haven't they? It's like taking pagan gods and remaking them as saints, but in reverse. It's certainly a retreat. If I were in Holland, I would observe Lent this season, Nonconformist though I am. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	johncwright 2008-02-14 05:34 pm UTC (link)
	They've really give up hope. If only that were a virtue Christians were required to practice. Oh. Wait... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mrmandias 2008-02-12 11:06 pm UTC (link)
	Lent is the new Ramadan. Infidels are in! (Reply to this)

missjeanevil
2008-02-13 04:28 am UTC (link)

I am aquainted with a few Muslims who laugh about the way Ramadan is followed - after the fast ends, everyone pigs out! One of them said that her father-in-law gains weight because in the evening, his wife cooks a huge meal and he eats the equivalent of a three-course meal before going to bed.

There was an article a couple of years ago about drivers in a large city (in Saudia Arabia, I believe). They got into more accidents during Ramadan because they would eat too much, be unable to sleep well, and then be exhausted the next day on their commute.

I think the idea of Lent being compared to Ramadan is all right to explain it to Muslims who don't understand, but not to blur the line in general.

(Reply to this)

jordan179
2008-02-13 08:49 am UTC (link)

Dutch Catholics have re-branded the Lent fast as the "Christian Ramadan" in an attempt to appeal to young people who are more likely to know about Islam than Christianity.

Ok ... is this level of Dutch Catholic cowardice a holdover from the Wars of Religion (you may remember that the Catholics weren't exactly popular in late 16th to 17th century Holland) or is it some new thing?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fpb 2008-02-13 12:07 pm UTC (link)
	It's a new thing. You will find the same mindset among the Dutch Reformed. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Side question sce2aux 2008-02-14 01:04 am UTC (link)
	John, Sorry for the off thread question but can you give us an update on your next projects... specifically the novel about the time sleeping husband? (Reply to this)

(24 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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