John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2008-04-02 10:23:00
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Lord of the Rings and Property Law
For those of you out there who are 1L (first year law students) you could do worse for boning up on your property law exam than by analyzing the chain of property claims on the One Ring.

See here.

An excerpt:

Consider the following facts:

  1. Sauron holds ownership in the Ring through accession, by working one thing (base metals) into a new thing (a ring of power)
  2. He is dispossessed by Isildur, who now holds possession in the Ring.
  3. Isildur loses the Ring (he has a manifest intent to exclude others but no physical control) when it slips off his finger as he was swimming in the Anduin river to escape from Orcs.
  4. Déagol finds the Ring.
  5. He is dispossessed by Sméagol (a.k.a. Gollum).
  6. Gollum loses the Ring and it is finally found by Bilbo.
  7. Bilbo gifts the Ring to Frodo. Later, Aragorn (the heir of Isildur) tells Frodo to carry the ring to Mordor, making Frodo his bailee.
  8. Sam, assuming that Frodo is dead, takes the Ring according to instructions to help Frodo with the Ring in grave circumstances. Sam is acting here as a (fictional) bailee and he returns possession to Frodo after finding him still alive.
  9. At the end of the book, Gollum restores his possession of the ring. Seconds later, he and the Ring are both destroyed. At this point all property held in the Ring disappears.

The Lord of the Rings story is that of a property hierarchy with one owner and a series of possessors.

Bilbo states,

[The Ring] is mine isn’t it? I found it.

He seems to be laying a claim of ownership through finding. But finding only lets a finder hold possession in a thing. It does not extinguish the rights of those higher up on the hierarchy.

In Anderson v. Gouldberg it was found that “possession is good title against all the world except those having better title.” It does not matter that several of the possessors of the Ring like Isildur and Sméagol obtained possession by violently dispossessing others. That circumstance does not change the dispossessor’s rights vis-à-vis a third party.

[...] Simpson v. Gowers defines abandonment as a “giving up, a total desertion, and absolute relinquishment.” Sauron did believe that the Ring was destroyed, which would support the idea that an abandonment occurred.

[...] Stewart v. Gustafson sets out four factors to further help determine if property has been abandoned:

  1. Passage of Time: As the years go by, the likelihood of abandonment increases. In this case 3000 years passed, which is a not insignificant lapse of time.
  2. Nature of Transaction: Certain transactions lend themselves more to assuming abandonment, having objects cut off your hand does not appear to be one of them.
  3. Property Holder’s Conduct: Abandonment can be inferred if a property holder does not try to require possession a reasonable time after receiving notice. After finding that the Ring still existed, not only is Sauron trying to retake possession but he is described as “seeking it, seeking it, and all his thoughts [are] bent on it.”
  4. Nature of the Thing: As the value of a chattel increases, the likelihood of inferring abandonment decreases. The extreme value of the Ring (it could be used to conquer all Middle Earth) cuts against an abandonment. The specific nature of the Ring also cuts against abandonment. Gandalf specifically states that “[the Ring’s] keeper never abandons it”.

It appears to be that the evidence points to no abandonment having occurred.

 

I would agree with the writer, and argue that violent dispossession of the Ring by Isildur does not act as abandonment in any sense of the word by Sauron. Sauron did not relinquish the Ring, it was cut from his finger.

However, there is one point the writer here may have overlooked. As best we mortals can tell, the great and fell spirit of Sauron died, or, at least, was reduced to a shadow, when he fell before Elendil and Gil-Galad. If being reduced to a shadow is considered, in the eyes of the law, to be the same as death (a point by no means clear in Anglo-American common law) then the passage of property to Sauron's heirs obtains. If Sauron died intestate (and there is no evidence in the text that the Dark Lord wrote a will) and the Ring should pass to his natural heirs as defined by the controlling statute, or defined by common law.

It is not clear from the text who the Dark Lord's next relative was. He had no wife, no children, and, aside from Eru, the One, no father. As best we can tell, Maiar neither marry nor are given in marriage. The five Istari were the only Maiar walking Middle Earth in the Third Age: we must assume they were cousins or second cousins or where clearly more closely related as heirs than members of mortal non-Maiar intelligent species. As the chief of the Istari, Saruman of the Many Colors, also called Curunir, probably has the best claim. The Ring was meant to be his: I am sure he would use it wisely.

Of course, in real life, the courts defer to political considerations, such as the outcome of battles. In the absence of a treaty, property disputes between sovereigns are settled by what is delicately called "the last argument of kings." Oratio Ultima Regem.

 





(60 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]thegameiam
2008-04-02 03:11 pm UTC (link)
fabulous!

(Reply to this)


[info]fpb
2008-04-02 04:38 pm UTC (link)
I think you should consult a specialist in international law. If the ring of Sauron was part of the spoils of victory, then Isildur counts as legitimate owner, since he took it as part of his settlement of the results of war. He is the only person through whose hands the Ring has passed to have openly claimed in front of his allies ("This I will have") and to have made a law-based claim to it ("as wergild for my father and brother"), and in spite of their contrary warnings, his allies do not seem to have actively opposed his settlement of the matter. Isildur's claiming of the Ring, therefore, has the legal value of an international treaty, and the way I understand it, international treaties are the foundation of international law. Two more points: Isildur is the only Ring possessor who is, without usurpation or dispute, a sovereign authority, the law-giving king of a great state; and much later, at the Council of Elrond, the Ring-bearer Frodo acknowledged Isildur's heir Aragorn as legitimate owner of the Ring, without debate or doubt. And by then, Frodo knew enough of the Ring's history and nature.

Edited at 2008-04-02 04:42 pm UTC

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[info]jordan179
2008-04-02 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Also note that the War of the Last Alliance ended not in a peace treaty, but in a decisive and unconditional victory over Sauron, which however left whatever remnants of Sauron's kingdom (including Sauron's ghost) still technically at war with the Free Peoples. Hence, the only real issue is whom the Free Peoples considered rightful owner of the Ring, and that was Isildur. The obvious possible disputants of this ownership, the heirs of Gil-galad (who would have been represented by Elrond) apparently did not dispute the ownership -- Elrond advised Isildur to destroy the Ring, but did not claim to own it himself. (Indeed, Elrond knew better than to even try, not so much for fear of Isildur as for fear of the Ring's divisive powers).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]luckymarty
2008-04-02 05:35 pm UTC (link)
I literally laughed out loud at the article's consideration of the weregild issue:

If a claim in weregild is upheld then Aragorn would hold ownership of the Ring. The Ring, however, is shown to have Animus Revertendi as it seeks to return itself to Sauron.

Would this cut against a transfer in weregild? Canadian Courts have, so far, not ruled on how the intrinsic characteristics of magical items demonstrate who holds what property in them.


He somehow overlooked the issue of sovereignty, however.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2008-04-02 06:14 pm UTC
Daegol's heir becomes the new Dark Lord
[info]johncwright
2008-04-02 06:25 pm UTC (link)
The law based claim of the weregild, if it were upheld, should settle the dispute between Isildur and Sauron. That is, if a weregild is offered and accepted, Sauron is clean from the blood-guilt for having slain Elendil.

The opposing counsel could argue Isildur's claim is doubtful, since Sauron did not offer the One Ring as a weregild, nor did the heirs of Isildur forswear their war and vendetta against Sauron and his servants.

The more difficult legal claim is whether Aragorn, as Isildur's heir, has legal possession of the Ring one it is lost in the Great River, or does Deagol's surviving heir get the Ring? The finder of lost or abandoned property has a good title against all the world, save for the true owner.

I notice the legal analysis does not address the claim of Daegol relatives to the Ring. He found it; after his murder by Smaegol, title should pass to his heirs. Didn't he have a Grandmother or something?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Daegol's heir becomes the new Dark Lord - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-02 08:18 pm UTC
Re: Daegol's heir becomes the new Dark Lord - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-02 08:18 pm UTC
Re: Daegol's heir becomes the new Dark Lord - [info]johncwright, 2008-04-02 08:51 pm UTC
Don't the laws of legacy assume death must have occurred? - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-02 10:49 pm UTC
Re: Don't the laws of legacy assume death must have occurred? - [info]johncwright, 2008-04-03 02:04 pm UTC
Don't get me started! - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-03 05:46 pm UTC

[info]mrmandias
2008-04-03 04:31 am UTC (link)
I made the point below that the common law recognized valid title by conquest, but I see you anticipated me.

It only makes sense that the common law would, since the origin of many English titles was the Norman conquest.

There's a famous old US Supreme Court case whose name escapes me that turned on whether American lands were originally acquired by right of conquest or because they weren't being sufficiently used already (the name of this legal doctrine also escapes me).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jordan179
2008-04-02 04:44 pm UTC (link)
What about the state of war existing between Sauron and the Free Peoples? It seems to me that Isildur and his heirs fairly acquired title as war booty; Sauron loses title but is attempting to reacquire it by a variety of covert and overt means. Now, this assumes that one can legitimately acquire title through plunder in war, but that would be an operating principle in Middle-Earth.

The real legitimacy issue here would be between Aragorn (the heir of Isildur's body), Denethor II (the heir to the rule of Gondor), Smeagol (the longest possessor of the Ring after it was found again) and Bilbo (who gifted it to Frodo).

Smeagol's title is dubious: not only was his cousin Deagol a mere "finder" of the Ring, but Smeagol actually murdered Deagol (not plundered in battle, as there was no war and Smeagol's action was clearly a crime by the laws of his own people) to obtain the Ring. By contrast, Bilbo stole it from Smeagol, but under circumstances in which Smeagol was clearly behaving as an outlaw (he threatened to eat Bilbo!).

Aragorn and Frodo agreed to destroy the Ring, so the issue of title between them becomes irrelevant: either the Ring is Aragorn's and Frodo is acting as his agent in disposing of the Ring, or it is Frodo's and Aragorn, as rightful King of the North (including the Shire) is authorizing Frodo's intentions.

The last issue, which is what caused the breaking of the Fellowship, is whether it is Aragorn or Denethor II who has the authority over the Ring. The key point, it seems, is that Aragorn is rightful heir definitely to the North-Kingdom, and either to the South-Kingdom as well or there is no rightful heir to the South-Kingdom; in either case, Aragorn is direct heir of Isildur while Denethor II is only of a line of hereditary agents of the heirs of Isildur (and only in the South). So I would hold that Aragorn's title is better -- as indeed, in the end did the people of Gondor to much more than just the Ring :)

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[info]johncwright
2008-04-02 06:18 pm UTC (link)
"By contrast ... Smeagol was clearly behaving as an outlaw (he threatened to eat Bilbo!)."

This would have no relevance to the claim of possession of the Ring.

Bilbo's claim, if it is to be supported at all, has to be based on the claim that he won the Ring from Gollum in a Riddle-Game.

Notice that one recurring theme in Tolkien is the groping after legalistic excuses to claim possession of the One Ring: when what is actually happening is that the Ring, like sin itself, is possessing them.

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(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-04-02 10:41 pm UTC

[info]jordan179
2008-04-02 04:51 pm UTC (link)
As best we can tell, Maiar neither marry nor are given in marriage.

I don't think that's true -- the Valar had sexes and married (in fact, most of them married); the Maiar were basically just lesser spirits of the same nature. Melian certainly married an Elf, and there's no particular reason to think that other Maiar didn't marry each other, unless you want to assume that the duties of their service precluded this.

The five Istari were the only Maiar walking Middle Earth in the Third Age: we must assume they were cousins or second cousins or where clearly more closely related as heirs than members of mortal non-Maiar intelligent species. As the chief of the Istari, Saruman of the Many Colors, also called Curunir, probably has the best claim. The Ring was meant to be his: I am sure he would use it wisely.

Saruman seems to have agreed with this argument ;-)

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I stand corrected on the Marriage thing, but what about Mortuary?
[info]johncwright
2008-04-02 06:36 pm UTC (link)
"Melian certainly married an Elf"

Those mixed marriages never work out! Just ask Spock, that halfbreed.

oh... wait ...

Well, if there was a Dark Lady who was Sauron's wife, and they had a Dark Prince in wedlock, either he would take title, or she would, depending on the Dower and Curtsey rules.

Also, by ancient tradition, called Mortuary, the Church gets the second-best possession of the dead man's estate, to pay for the burial expense; and his lord gets his best.

Under this rule, Melkor would get the One Ring, and the Church would get something lame, like Sauron's best cow, or his socks or something. Yes, that Dark Cow of Udun, Bovine of Evil, whom Tolkien wisely did not mention in the trilogy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I stand corrected on the Marriage thing, but what about Mortuary? - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-02 08:23 pm UTC
Re: I stand corrected on the Marriage thing, but what about Mortuary? - [info]jordan179, 2008-04-02 11:07 pm UTC
Regarding marriage and children of the Valar
[info]deiseach
2008-04-02 08:36 pm UTC (link)
In the volumes of "The History of Middle-earth" edited by Christopher Tolkien from his father's papers, Professor Tolkien did originally have the Valar marrying and having children, but he changed his mind on that.

The Children of the Valar were then replaced by the Maiar, who are spirits similar, if inferior in power to, the Valar. Being of the same degree and order, Sauron as a Maia (and subordinate to Melkor the Vala) is kindred to the other Maiar such as the Istari.

Melian seems to have been a special case and truly unique. She, in a sense, forsook her powers and status to marry Elu and bear Luthien.

Melkor Morgoth Bauglir never married, but he did attempt to rape Arien, the Maia of the Sun, and he was certainly susceptible to Luthien's charms: there seems to be some indication that he planned to take her as at least a concubine. That's the nearest to marriage he ever got.

However, Sauron never expressed any interest in anyone (other than himself), so far as I can tell :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Regarding marriage and children of the Valar - [info]jordan179, 2008-04-02 11:01 pm UTC
Re: Regarding marriage and children of the Valar - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-03 12:59 pm UTC

[info]necoras
2008-04-02 05:16 pm UTC (link)
I hate lawyers... no offense intended John.

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Never too many
[info]johncwright
2008-04-02 06:29 pm UTC (link)
Lawyers are a necessary evil. The only other options are (1) trial by combat a la IVANHOE, or (2) something worse.

Let me quote an anecdote:

http://www.olimu.com/Journalism/Texts/Commentary/ExterminateThis.htm

A few months ago I took lunch with a gentleman named Dong YuYu, a visitor from mainland China, where he works as literary editor of a highbrow national newspaper. Now, there is a certain regrettable cast of mind that I fall into in these situations. Here is a gentleman, intelligent, thoughtful, polite and well-dressed, from an ancient civilization with a glittering literary tradition stretching back into the Bronze Age, when my own ancestors were dressed in animal skins. Unfortunately his nation has been kept in poverty and misery for the past several decades by packs of home-grown gangsters. I sympathize, but I do not want to be condescending, and in the effort not to be condescending I lean too far the other way, and find myself harping on negative aspects of America’s political culture. (This isn’t just me; Henry Kissinger’s disgraceful brown-nosing of Chou En-lai seems to have been another instance of this too-earnest determination not to condescend.)

So it was on this occasion. For reasons I have forgotten, I had been vexed by some member of the legal profession. America, I told Mr Dong, was plagued by lawyers. They are crawling into every area of our national life, like cockroaches, nibbling away at all the cement of decency and mutual consideration that holds our society together… Mr Dong was shaking his head. No, he said, you can’t have too many lawyers. Oh, I said, but he could not possibly imagine… He was still shaking his head. “No. Don’t complain. You can’t have too many.” I persisted. Did he follow the O.J. Simpson case? That so-called “dream team”… “No,” said Mr Dong, calmly but very firmly now, “You can’t have too many lawyers. You can’t. Impossible. Never too many.”

I could not budge him on the point, this man from a nation hungry for law.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Never too many - [info]juliet_winters, 2008-04-02 06:35 pm UTC
Re: Never too many - [info]johncwright, 2008-04-02 07:21 pm UTC
Re: Never too many - [info]juliet_winters, 2008-04-02 07:28 pm UTC
Re: Never too many - [info]dirigibletrance, 2008-04-02 08:09 pm UTC
Re: Never too many - [info]arhyalon, 2008-04-03 12:55 pm UTC
Re: Never too many - [info]ekbell, 2008-04-02 07:59 pm UTC
Re: Never too many - [info]necoras, 2008-04-03 02:13 pm UTC
There's hope for lawyers
[info]deiseach
2008-04-02 10:52 pm UTC (link)
After all, St. Thomas More was a lawyer, and is now a saint, so Mr. Wright and his professional brethren have an example to encourage them.

(Mind you, he became a saint by having his head chopped off, so...)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

One Ring
[info]gryphmon
2008-04-02 08:52 pm UTC (link)
I just want to point out that you are leaving one party out of the discussion. The Ring itself. In the books it is treated as being at least semi-sentient. It had a will of its own.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

I think that's where the straying beast argument comes in
[info]deiseach
2008-04-02 10:55 pm UTC (link)
The Ring is certainly represented as doing its best to get back to its proper owner, and it bears Sauron's mark (the inscription), so clearly Sauron is the original and continuing owner of the Ring.

Definitely the Ring should be considered - this might turn out to be a custody case, not a property law one! ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: One Ring
[info]mrmandias
2008-04-03 04:38 am UTC (link)
Nah, still a chattel. If men and beasts could be chattels, rings of malicious will could aslo.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: One Ring
[info]mrmandias
2008-04-03 04:42 am UTC (link)
The ring is still property, but since it has a will of its own and some degree of mobility (its always slipping off fingers by design), arguably it should have the same legal status that wild beasts did. They were property "ferae naturae", meaning they were only owned as long as they were in your possession or on your realty.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: One Ring - [info]mrmandias, 2008-04-03 04:47 am UTC
Re: One Ring - [info]arhyalon, 2008-04-03 12:57 pm UTC

[info]flaminphonebook
2008-04-03 12:39 am UTC (link)
As to point (1), how legal was the accession? It was the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil who developed the Rings of Power. "But Sauron guided their labors, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring him under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up by it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only as long as it too should last." -Silmarillion p 356 (Ballentine 1977)

For a modern comparison, consider if Apple hires me to provide battery technology for its iPhones, and I spy on the R&D department to see what signal they use for the transmissions, and then build and use a device to disable the batteries I've built. I have dubious claim over holding the device to begin with, and certainly no right to use it. In any case, a government official, which Isildur was, has the legal power of seizure on probable cause of connection to a crime in progress.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Of the Rings of Power
[info]deiseach
2008-04-03 01:13 pm UTC (link)
The smiths of Ost-in-Edhil did indeed forge the rings, but it was under the supervision and with the assistance of Sauron, who had provided the information and knowledge necessary in the first place.

Celebrimbor forged the Three himself, but only with the aid of the knowledge he had obtained from Sauron, so I think Sauron has a definite intellectual property right in the Three and Celebrimbor is the one up for an industrial espionage charge.

(Good gravy, I can't believe I'm defending Sauron's rights. This is what happens to us Lawful Good types - we stick to the rules, even if it's on behalf of the divil an' all.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Of the Rings of Power - [info]johncwright, 2008-04-03 02:47 pm UTC
"I'm very sorry, Mr. Tharkun" - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-03 06:05 pm UTC

[info]mrmandias
2008-04-03 04:28 am UTC (link)
Under the common law, acquisition by conquest was a recognized way that a chain of title in a chattel could begin. So Isildur's dispossession of Sauron would work an effective transfer of title.

Also, I believe there is a strong public policy against Sauron owning the ring. Therefore he may be said to have abandoned the ring by operation of law whatever his actual intent. In fact, this public policy is so strong that I would say he never held valid title, his claim to title being void ab initio.

(Reply to this)

Dialogue between two lawyers on the subject
[info]thegameiam
2008-04-03 11:40 am UTC (link)
I sent this link to a bunch of nerdy lawyer friends of mine, and their response is here.

Note: the second attourney indicated that he was hired to represent Isildur's heirs by an unnamed party.

(Reply to this)

The Feminine Perspective
[info]arhyalon
2008-04-03 12:49 pm UTC (link)
I think the Ring's feelings should be consulted.

Has anyone asked the Ring how it feels? Whether or not it's love for Sauron is true? Whether or not it has been laboring to return to him all this time?

The law is so impersonal and cold.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The Ring as shakti
[info]deiseach
2008-04-03 01:08 pm UTC (link)
Since Sauron put his power into the Ring, we can consider it as equivalent to his shakti(handy Wikipedia definition coming up):
"Shakti meaning sacred force, power or energy is the Hindu concept or personification of the divine feminine aspect, sometimes referred to as 'The Divine Mother'. Shakti represents the active, dynamic principles of feminine power. In Shaktism, Shakti is worshiped as the Supreme Being. However, in other Hindu traditions, Shakti embodies the active energy and power of male deities (Purushas), such as Vishnu in Vaishnavism or Shiva in Shaivism. Vishnu's shakti counterpart is called Lakshmi, with Parvati being the female shakti of Shiva."

Therefore, as Jagi so cogently points out, we are not dealing with a case of property law *at all*. The Ring is to Sauron as Parvati is to Shiva - thus raising the interesting question of should Isildur and all subsequent claimants be charged with alienation of affections?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]necoras, 2008-04-03 02:16 pm UTC
Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]arhyalon, 2008-04-03 03:06 pm UTC
Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-03 06:02 pm UTC
Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]arhyalon, 2008-04-03 08:59 pm UTC
Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]howling_wolf, 2008-04-06 04:53 am UTC
Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]arhyalon, 2008-04-06 06:55 pm UTC
Re: The Feminine Perspective - [info]johncwright, 2008-04-04 05:41 pm UTC
Adverse Possesession
[info]mr_feathertop
2008-04-04 07:27 pm UTC (link)
What about adverse possession? I know it is not typically applied to personal property, but it is ultimately based upon the statute of limitations.

Gollum possessed it for thousands of years, which means the statute had run. Then, Bilbo possessed it for the better part of a century if my recollection is correct. Since there is no record of any action being brought by any of the other claimants to recover the ring during this time, the twenty years for property under common law has clearly run. Therefore, when Bilbo left it to Frodo, Frodo had clear title.

I think there might be an argument about whether Bilbo's possession was open and notorious. But Gollum and Gandolf clearly knew Bilbo possessed it and Gollum told Sauron.

I am pretty sure that Bilbo would have prevailed.

As far as intellectual rights go, this can only be a patent. Neither copyrights nor trademarks cover inventions. And a patent has to be approved by the government to exist. In any case, the most he would have had was a claim for damages not possession of the ring. Furthermore, the doctrine of sovereign immunity would have precluded any action brought against Isuldur or the elven lords under a claim of intellectual property. Therefore, Sauron losses.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Adverse Possesession
[info]johncwright
2008-04-04 09:06 pm UTC (link)
One of the elements of adverse possession is that the possession must be open and notorious. Neither Gollum nor Bilbo told anyone that they possessed the One Ring, and one cannot claim adverse possession ("is it mine because the true owner never wanted it back") if the true owner did not know and could not know of the possession.

Sauron the Great was also Mostly Dead All Day. An equitable reading of the law should not allow an adverse possessor to claim when the true owner has not get been revived by Miracle Max, because the true owner is simply not in the position to press his claim, send out Dark Riders, torture Gollum, or Bend His Dark Will upon the face of the Earth, gathering all dark items of power to Him.

In some states, Adverse Possession also requires that the claimant improve the land, and that the true owner neglect it. In this case, Bilbo did not even attempt to conquer middle-earth with the One Ring, and extinguish all light and hope forever. Indeed, he did not even conquer Eriador, or the Shire, or even that part of Hobbiton near Bagshot Row. Clearly he was not using the Ring or improving it. Bilbo was not even a Dim Lord. Gollum worked the One Ring with even smaller results: all he did was squat in a cave.

Sorry. Good try.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Adverse Possesession - [info]mr_feathertop, 2008-04-04 11:04 pm UTC
Ah, but Mostly Dead is also A Little Bit Alive - [info]deiseach, 2008-04-05 06:25 pm UTC

[info]ladyhobbit
2008-04-08 01:27 am UTC (link)
"As best we can tell, Maiar neither marry nor are given in marriage."
Wrong! I quote from the index to The Silmarillion: "Melian: A Maia, who left Valinor and came to Middle-earth; afterwards the Queen of King Thingol in Doriath, about which she set a girdle of enchantment, the Girdle of Melian; mother of Luthien, and fore-mother of Elrond and Elros." Thus she is also a fore-mother of Aragorn, though very distant.

(Reply to this)


[info]spikebrennan
2009-05-12 07:14 pm UTC (link)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.legal.moderated/browse_thread/thread/a0e5dd3b42d755c3/e7dddeff8953dcc3?q=%2Bsmeagol+%2Bbrennan

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