John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2008-05-29 17:45:00
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The Morality of the Mind

Flamingphonebook and I were discussing whether moral rules concern the outcomes and consequences of external actions only, or whether the internal state of the soul and conscience is also a proper matter for moral concern. Is there a morality of the mind? He is in the posture of a Pharisee, arguing that to abide by the outward forms of outward rules is sufficient. I am in the Christian posture, arguing that hatred is immoral as murder, lust as immoral as adultery. In this I am also following the tradition of pagan Roman and Greek philosophers, as Epictetus, who argues that a Stoic must attend to his state of mind to achieve serenity; or as Epicurus, who argues that an Epicurean must attend to his state of mind in order to desire and to achieve only moderate and rational pleasures.

Flamingphonebook writes:

There is no morality of the mind, nor is there morality for a man alone on an island or in a tower. Victimless crime is an oxymoron.
I have three supports for this position in three different spheres.
In the pragmatic: how shall we know what a man is thinking in order to judge him? And how much chance do we give him to amend his thinking? Is it evil simply to have a desire to murder, even if one recognizes its evil and tries to rid the self of the desire, through meditation or prayer or counseling? Some thoughts are not wholly voluntary, but are reactions that cannot be controlled.
In the logical: laws going back to the Code of Hammurabi call for punishment to be in measure with the offense--an eye for an eye, not a life for an eye. Curtailing speech by means of the rod and cage is not in measure, nor is curtailing thought by speech. Using force to correct thoughts is two orders out of measure and an egregious violation of justice.
So to be perfectly consistent, you may judge my thoughts as you like, save that you may not give voice to your judgments, and I may respond in kind by judging the thought of your judgment, and so ad infinitum. I say that thoughts are no moral evil, therefore disagreeing with that thought is also no moral evil.
In the emotional: if there is a morality of the mind, then there is no situation wherein man has full license without control. That is unless you describe heaven as a state where men have leave to indulge their slightest whims, and I have never heard it described as such. If no such place exists, even in the cool dark of the mind, then I would call the universe malevolant, as it has created desires with no means to fulfill them. And I would rail against it as unjust.

The argument made here is a strong one, very much in keeping with the Enlightenment ideas of minimal public morals, and a wary distaste for the use of force to compel the conscience. It is an argument I respect, but one where I do not see a reason to agree with the axioms on which it is based.

 

It is, indeed, an external argument only, concerned with the use of force, and the proper restriction of the use of Courts of Law. The counter-argument is about morals, that is, an internal argument, concerned with what a man ought to do, he himself with his own life and soul; the counter-argument is nowise concerned with what the state is allowed to compel its freeborn subjects to do. The conversations are on different topics.

If I may without trying your patience, let us contemplate some follow-up questions about the morality of thought.

Suppose I am shipwrecked alone on an island, and I entertain one set of thoughts, dwelling on my sorry lot, and I shall be unhappy in consequence thereof; but if I dwell on another set of thoughts, I shall be filled with grateful joy, happy to be alive.

I will not bother to argue that a happy and confident shipwreck victim has a greater chance of survival, all other things being equal, merely due to psychological vigor, than a gloomy and despairing shipwreck victim. Such arguments are crass humbug: as if mere length of days were the only yardstick by which we judge the value of a man’s life, or as if happiness were desirable only for its statistical effect on the outcome of a Darwinian survival struggle.

Living a happy life and living are moral life are things to be desired in and of themselves, needing no other justification. This being so, the hypothetical raises the following questions:

Does a practical interest in preferring happiness to unhappiness tell me it is in my best interest to attend to the content of my thoughts, and the nature of my character?

Is there is an opportunity cost, a loss and a gain, if I shape my personality toward one end as opposed to another?

Let us turn from a discussion of the happiness of a man alone on an island to a discussion of morals.

Suppose further, by the same token, as a shipwreck victim, I could dwell on and entertain one set of thoughts, and corrode my character, so that I lost the ability to tell right from wrong, and talked myself into deafness when my conscience spoke; or contrariwise dwelt on another set of thought, and become as holy as a hermit in a cave, even if no one else saw me, a man of virtue and good character, serene as Buddha.

To make the hypothetical more interesting, let us say that a supply of morphine, Playboy magazines, bottles of vodka and barrels of beer, and a lifetime supply of suicide pills also survived the shipwreck. Rather than build a hut, chop firewood, or hunt for food, I could beguile the long golden tropical afternoons staring at girly pictures and shooting junk, drinking boilermakers, and, if I fall into a Kevorkian despondency, swallowing an lethal pill. There are no victimless crimes on the island, but surely there is some basis in prudence or pleasure or duty, some sort of moral reasoning I can contemplate, to tell me whether these are good decisions or a bad ones. For contrast, let us also hypothesis that a complete set of the Great Books of the Western World also washed up on shore, including all those works of literature and philosophy, religion and deep thought, that I always wanted the leisure to read, in order to learn how best to live, or how to prepare myself to endure suffering and death with the dignity of a philosopher. Is there truly and honestly no moral rule to consult before I decide whether to read and study these books rather than use them for kindling? Is it merely like preferring pie to cake, a matter of mere taste only, whether I seek comfort from the Bible or the writings of Seneca rather than seek distraction from a convenient porn magazine?  

A more important question is this: do the content of my thoughts, even if I am alone on an island, have real consequence on the content of my character?

Do I have a pragmatic reason, if I wish to be happy, to attend to the content of my character? Does my character affect my happiness?

Do I have a moral imperative (as I ought to seek to be moral, it being axiomatic that all men desire the Good) to attend to the content of my character? Does my character affect my morality and manhood?

If so, since I cannot have good character without good thoughts, does it not follow that morality and pragmatism (each for its own reasons) require that I attend carefully to the content of my thought?

Given that I can influence whether I shall be a man such as I wish to be, or a man such as any good man would despise, is it a matter of moral duty  seek to be a good man?

In other words, even if my base appetites and selfish desires do not incline me, at the moment, to prefer the good, ought I nonetheless seek to be good?   

Should I listen to my conscience even when my base desires for false pleasures urges me not to?

By “false pleasures” here I mean those pleasures that betray you; the one that promise you happiness, but never deliver on their promises— the pleasures that deliver pleasure only at first, and later become a grief, or even torment. I note in passing that the Enlightenment idea of letting each man attend to his own pursuit of pleasure seems not to recognize this category. It is merely a blind spot in their philosophy, a blank spot in their minds. Even though everyone in real life knows, or has heard of, drunks and gamblers and adulterers and gluttons whose inordinate pleasures, escaping all moderate control, drive them like a Napoleonic cavalryman riding his foaming horse to death, somehow the modern thinkers seem not to acknowledge that such men, such ruined lives, exist.  

Now, let us regard your three points.

1. In the pragmatic point, while you have no ability to know what some perfect stranger is thinking in order to judge him, do you admit that I am in a position to know what I myself am thinking in order for me to judge me? Can I make no assessment of my own worth in my own eyes, or compare myself to the standards the conscience discovers in natural reason or beyond it? I am, after all, not a perfect stranger to myself.

Do you grant that it is impractical not to attend to the content of one's own thought or one's own character? Do you agree that the unexamined life is not worth living?

There are men who have no ambition other than to live in peace, and not run afoul of the law, and to obey the Powers That Be, whether the laws of the land be just or unjust. Fair enough. But a philosopher, or a saint, has a higher ambition: not merely to live, but to live well: to live as higher ideals demand.

If he is an Epicurean, he wants to live according to rational and moderate pleasures. If he is a Stoic, he wants to live according to nature and the natural duties, in order to achieve serenity. If he is a Christian, he wants to live according to the rational laws of morality and according to the revealed will of God.

Practicality, then, demands that the Epicurean, the Stoic, and the Christian take steps to carry out his program for his life. Practicality says he cannot achieve his ends unless he finds the means proportionate to those ends. Common sense observes that no one can end up with a good character, a well-tempered soul, merely by undisciplined chance and accident. If this is the goal, one must make an effort to achieve it. The Epicurean, the Stoic, and the Christian, all three, would characterize their effort to achieve self-command as a moral effort. Is their characterization correct?

You mention the impracticality of attempting to achieve self-control on the grounds that some thoughts are involuntary, some reactions not able to be controlled. I respectfully submit that the fact that some men have more or less control over their thoughts does not change the moral calculation involved.

Those things a man honestly cannot control are not a matter for moral judgment. A madman, for example, does not by choice or negligence go mad. For this reason, we do not consider madness to be shameful. We do not punish madmen. Alcoholism, on the other hand, has in some men or in others a greater or lesser voluntary component. Custom scorns drunkenness as shameful and public laws punish public intoxication, drunk driving, and other aspects of the behavior.

All temptation has at least some involuntary component; otherwise we do not call it temptation. We do not praise or blame the involuntary component. Only for what a man honestly, by choice or by his negligence, is or should be responsible, do we hold him accountable.

In other words, the argument that, because some involuntary thoughts exist, we should be excused us from any moral judgment about any thought, simply does not follow. The argument would follow if and only if no thoughts whatsoever were voluntary, for then and then only would there be no accountability for the content of thought and character. As it is, in real life, those thoughts that are voluntary would still fall under a moral rule.

Further, the extent to which some thoughts are voluntary or involuntary is influenced by the habits of virtue. Children have no real control over their thoughts and actions. They are below the age of reason, and so must be trained and instructed. They are not born knowing right from wrong. The act of training and instructing a child in the habits of virtue is in and of itself proof that the boundary between voluntary and involuntary thought can be moved.

2. In the logical point, you speak of punishments fitting the crime, but in every hypothetical we have discussed so far, we are discussing a situation where the act has no consequences after 31 minutes. In any case, this is a red herring on your part: I urge you to contemplate that a real man does what is right because it is right, not because someone may punish or not punish him for doing it. Unjust law punish men for doing what is right rather than what is wrong: the consequences in such cases are reversed from what they ought to be. While cowardly and practical men accede to unjust laws, in order to avoid the consequences, just men seek justice, and defy the laws that abridge justice, and they damn the consequences. 

In any case, the self-inflicted punishments of victimless crimes are clear enough to anyone who pays attention to what the real and ruinous consequences are that follow from base self-indulgences. It is the fantasy that one can escape those consequences, or that one can indulge only moderately in vice and emerge unstained, it is this cruel self-deception I say, which makes prudent lawgivers put vice laws on their lawbooks. The victims of victimless crimes are, of course, the wives and children of the men who lose health and sobriety and fortune and life in the pursuit of false pleasures, and the man himself, who abolishes the good man he might have otherwise been.  

You also argue thus: “So to be perfectly consistent, you may judge my thoughts as you like, save that you may not give voice to your judgments, and I may respond in kind by judging the thought of your judgment, and so ad infinitum. I say that thoughts are no moral evil, therefore disagreeing with that thought is also no moral evil.”

Here I apologize and confess myself baffled. I simply cannot follow what you are saying. I do not see why “to be perfectly consistent” I cannot voice my judgments about your thoughts, even if I use no force to coerce you to agree with my judgments. Criticism is not trespass nor assault; it is not even slander. I do not see why your ability to disagree leads to “ad infinitum” or what your point is. Are you arguing we must avoid an infinite regress? No such point is in evidence. When two men disagree, the argument might indeed continue without conclusion; or one man or both might modify their conclusions after due consideration. The mere fact of the disagreement says nothing to the relative merits of the case. People disagree both about issues where no conclusion is possible, and about issues where one is.

If my disagreement with your thought that thoughts are morally neutral is also morally neutral, then I am free to disagree, for I do no immorality by voicing disagreement. Is that your point, or where you trying to say something else? I am afraid I am lost here.

3. The emotional point, I can not answer. My emotions are the opposite of yours, and what appeals to your emotions leave me cool and unmoved.

I am not a fan of self-indulgence. I have contempt for those who yield sovereignty of their reason to their appetites.

My reason tells me is pointless and illogical to rail against the injustice of a universe because we lack perfect self-control; my emotions tell me it is unworthy.

The Stoic seeking self-command or even the hedonist seeking moderation must seek self-discipline; no morality is possible without self-discipline. Morality, indeed, might be defined as the self-enforcement of the rules that otherwise a theoretically a perfect justice should have a right to force us by coercion to obey, but that it is more meritorious, on our part, to obey out of love of justice or a sense of duty.  

Even an imperfect attempt to live without vice is nobler than railing against the imperfections of fallen man, and surrendering to those vices. Only a perfectionist would argue that, perfect self-command being impossible, license for all evils of the mind is therefore permissible.  The perfectionist merely ignores that there are degrees of perfection, and says that no bread is better than half a loaf.

I don't understand the idea that "if there is a morality of the mind, then there is no situation where man has full license without control." What do those words mean? Full license to do what? Why would such a license be desirable?

The situation where every man has full and absolute power to indulge any desire that happened to crop up in his imaginings, wholesome or perverse, moderate or gross, strikes me as the condition of Hell, and a particularly diabolic form of self-torture at that. I am sure Sartre could write an interesting play on the theme. 

To blame the universe for creating desires with no means to satisfy them is pure childishness. The universe has equipped the mind, in grown-ups, in sane men, with the power to judge desires and to set aside those that are futile, self-destructive, illicit or perverse. Those desires that cannot be set aside by an act of will, can be set aside by a trained habit of virtue, faithfully exercised. Those desires that even virtue cannot suppress, nevertheless do not have a warrant unless reason warrants them, and therefore must be resisted to the degree fallen human nature permits, or divine grace provides.

If a child cries because he thinks the moon is a lemon pie that he wants to eat, that child has no right to traduce the universe for creating in him such a foolish desire. He is responsible for what he desires, no one else. Even if he cannot control them, they are his, in much the same way a man’s own children are his: if he cannot take responsibility for them, no one else can.

The power to set aside the desire to eat the moon is given to men; whether they chose to exercise and strengthen it, or to undermine and weaken it, is the first and paramount decision of moral reasoning.

Are there temptations men cannot resist? Perhaps so. Men are weak. Are we excused from the duty to resist temptation merely because temptation often wins? Oh, Hercules! Are we allowed to throw down sword and shield and flee the battle merely because the Persian outnumber us, and their horns and flags and brave plumes daunt us? Is it not nobler, whether victory or defeat awaits, to close ranks, ready the spear, and rally to the standard to which we are pledged? Cowardice is unbecoming both in battles of the flesh, and of the spirit.

 




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Rnadom Thoughts
[info]m_francis
2008-05-30 12:55 am UTC (link)
Flamingphonebook
how shall we know what a man is thinking in order to judge him? And how much chance do we give him to amend his thinking? Is it evil simply to have a desire to murder, even if one recognizes its evil and tries to rid the self of the desire, through meditation or prayer or counseling? Some thoughts are not wholly voluntary, but are reactions that cannot be controlled.


The answer to the first question is easy: we don't, and it's not for us to judge. Civil law is for corporate hygiene; but moral law if for personal hygiene, as explained below. When we say that "hatred is as immoral as murder," we don't mean a passing irritation or a flash of anger. We mean an anger that is welcomed and nurtured and tended as we would a garden plant -- save that the fruit is somewhat bitter. De inimico non loquaris sed cogites, said Publilius Syrus, and we may translate this as "Don't speak ill of your enemy; plan it." This hatred, even if never acted upon, is not harmless. It hurts the hater. It makes him less. It upsets his serenity and happiness, and leads him to act unreasonably.

This is tied in with the idea of entitative perfection. Just as the senses are healthy when sensations are passed along to the inner senses without defect, the mind is healthy when it thinks properly -- and this means more than physically healthy brains and neural systems. It means becoming habituated to correct ways of thinking. There are two sorts of such virtues:

1. science is the ability to think surely and systematically about a particular subject. It is the perfection of the mind as health is the perfection of the body. Mens sana in corpore sano.

2. art is similar to science but carries the additional idea of doing. Grammar, for example, is the art of speaking and writing correctly, activities which differ from thinking in that they are acts of volition. Science is "knowing" and art is "know how."

Man being a rational animal, living well means living reasonably. Nurturing hatred impairs the ability to think clearly and is therefore injurious to the reasonable life. It is not necessary that anyone else know this, let alone that they "judge" it.
+ + +

"The art of living well, [says Wallace,] that is, of living reasonably and bringing all of one's natural powers to their proper fulfillment, is the basic concern of ethics. Like engineering and medicine, this is a practical science." The three levels of ethics are a) ethics simple, which deals with one's personal perfection; b) economics [social ethics] which addresses the perfection of the family; and c) politics, which addresses the perfection of the state. (Note: the casual meanings of b) and c) differ somewhat from their philosophical meanings.)

Thus we see that Mr. Wright has raised a question regarding a) and Mr. Phonebook has responded with regard to c).
+ + +

John C
Those desires that cannot be set aside by an act of will, can be set aside by a trained habit of virtue, faithfully exercised.

Nicely put. Aristotle would be proud. Virtus, in the Latin, meant a "strength." [It comes from "vir" [male].] It does not mean a namby-pamby, holier'n'thou goody two-shoes.*

Operative perfection is attained by habits, and these are acquired through repetition. Habits that advance a person's good are called virtues. Vices are their opposites. The ensemble of one's virtues and vices is called one's "character." "Through daily living, [quoting Wallace again] people develop skills and personality traits: they also develop character, and they do so whether they consciously intend it or not." Virtues are acquired by habituating the "cardinal" virtues of prudence, justice, courage, and moderation."

This "character" becomes a "second nature" over and above man's primary nature as a rational animal.

___________
*goody two-shoes. One wonders. Do wicked people have only one shoe? Or [more ominously] three?
Wallace, William A. The Modeling of Nature, CUA Press (1996) is one of the few textbooks around in Aristotelian physics.

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Don't perfect thoughts make moral choice meaningless?
[info]ehrhardtgc
2008-05-30 03:34 am UTC (link)
I get this sense that flamingphonebook got this discussion started in the wrong way. He(?) begins by talking about the morality of thought. But then he goes on to discuss victimless crime--which is an action, not a thought. John then gives a counter example of a person alone on an island--who is acting (yes, even sitting around reading playboy and drinking is an action). Neither of those apply to thought per se.

Consider Jesus on the mountain, when Satan tempts him. According to what I was taught, Jesus hesitated before rejecting Satan's offer. I imagine he was thinking "wow, I could rule the earth, or I could die a really painful death." But then he said "no, I have to do what I have to do." John seems to be suggesting that Jesus committed an immoral act by thinking that, when I would say that his act was moral precisely because he was tempted.

To me, saying that we should not be tempted by immoral behavior makes moral choice meaningless. If we always want to do the moral thing because we like the thing itself, not the morality, have we made choices we can be proud of? Isn't true moral courage desperately wanting to do one thing, and yet taking the other path--to lust, but keep our pants zipped, to hate, yet turn the other cheek (Should we consider a masochist moral because he turns the other cheek? I think not). Our imperfect thoughts are what makes moral choice important.

I wish I could think of a better way to sum up my argument, but I would say that the man who lusts and hates, yet restrains his passions and acts properly is a moral model, not the man whose habits are so good that he never thinks of sinning.

One more thought. Koestler's Darkness at Noon (a fictional account of Buharin's(?) show trial after Stalin decided to get rid of him) still seems to me to be the most powerful argument against criminalizing erroneous thought.

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Re: Don't perfect thoughts make moral choice meaningless?
[info]johncwright
2008-05-30 05:01 pm UTC (link)
"John seems to be suggesting that Jesus committed an immoral act by thinking that, when I would say that his act was moral precisely because he was tempted."

I am sorry if what I said was unclear. Please reread what I said about voluntary as opposed to involuntary thoughts. All temptation contains an involuntary component to it: a thought that comes to us without being inviting. Involuntary things are morally neutral. No one commits an immoral act by suffering a sudden temptation.

Morality only comes in when the involuntary becomes voluntary. If you nurture the temptation, welcome it, call it back, feed it, then it becomes a moral issue. My argument here is that is because a moral issue to nurture hatred or lust even if you never act on it, or even if, while acting on it, no consequences or good consequences flow from it.

"To me, saying that we should not be tempted by immoral behavior makes moral choice meaningless.... I would say that the man who lusts and hates, yet restrains his passions and acts properly is a moral model, not the man whose habits are so good that he never thinks of sinning."

You are drawing a meaningless distinction here. There is no one who is not tempted, not even Christ. Likewise, there is no warrior so bold that he triumphs in every melee, not even Lancelot. A fight against a weaker foe, where one wins handily, may have less glory than a fight where one triumphs in the face of impossible odds against a giant, but, in essence, the triumph is the same, as the defeat is the same.

In my case, I am often tempted by pride and lust, and never tempted by envy. Through no merit of my own, I simply happen not to have an envious bone in my body. Because I have fed and nurtured my arrogance through many years of arrogant habit, on the other hand, pride is almost insurmountable, and my victories over this temptation are rare. Is my victory over envy not of any moral merit, because it is easy for me? Say what you will, but it is a sin I am happy not to be tortured by. I rejoice in the grace, not of my own doing, that shields me from the soul-destroying worm called envy.

Also, let us not confuse a process with an outcome. I do not expect any man simply to fall out of bed one day and stand up a saint or a stoic. I expect the path of learning how to overcome weakness and vices to be rocky, hard, and weary. It is an act of learning a habit of virtue.

To learn virtue is like bootcamp, that trains the recruit in the habit of obedience and soldierly behavior. In some ways, learning a habit of virtue is harder than bootcamp, because instead of the loud voice of the drill instructor, you have nothing but the still, small voice of your conscience. Let us praise the man who learns the virtues of fortitude, justice, temperance, moderation, faithfulness, charity, hope, not to mention lesser virtues like magnanimity, courtesy, chastity and patience. Chaste men are as rare as unicorns, and just men as hard to find as archangels.

So, no, I see no reason to rob the saints of their due glory by saying someone who has overcome temptation is not as moral as someone who still struggles with it. Forgive me for so saying, but this is backward thinking, that only praises the underdog when he is losing, but scoffs at the hero during his victory parade.

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Re: Don't perfect thoughts make moral choice meaningless?
[info]baduin
2008-05-31 05:30 pm UTC (link)
I see you still dislike Kant. A remarkable philosopher - to be always wrong is a singular distinction!

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Re: Don't perfect thoughts make moral choice meaningless?
[info]sun_stealer
2008-06-10 06:56 pm UTC (link)
Is it me or does Kant's philsophy summed up as, "It is rational to puruse one's duty because it is rational."?

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The Banality of Heroism
[info]omegamythos
2008-05-30 03:44 am UTC (link)
I think one of the most convincing studies on the necessity of the cultivation of the mind is in the study of the "Stanford Prison Experiment" where students were put in "roleplaying" situation that got out of hand - where the student guards became real abusers of student prisoners and even the teachers lost sight of the inhumanity of the abuse that was going on.

That same professor later did studies on what it takes for a person to stand up to this kind of creeping evil and it comes from something called the Banality of Heroism - that the "everyday heroes" you read about who do something when everyone else just blandly stares and remains a bystander comes from a lifetime of cultivating virtue.

For more information, check out this article:
http://www.lucifereffect.org/articles/heroism.pdf

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Do "Great Men" exist?
[info]juliet_winters
2008-05-30 05:17 am UTC (link)
That was a question fielded in a history/literature course once. Out of a class of 20, 4 people (including myself and my boyfriend) believed that "Great Men" (and presumably women) did in fact exist. That some men in history did try to achieve a greater moral competence and had significant success.
That was apparently the wrong answer for the purposes of the course (which I dropped). The "right" answer was deeply rooted in the belief of the unavoidable darkness in every human psyche, particularly for successful men for whom temptations would be greater. Note that I said psyche and not soul. Souls were not part of the discussion.
I believe that the high proportion of students who were perfectly content to assume the worst in everyone explains why President Clinton was allowed to continue as president despite his legal and moral failings. Even a decade previously I do not think it would have been allowed by the public.


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[info]omegamythos
2008-05-30 05:21 am UTC (link)
The existence of "Great Men" makes many people feel uncomfortable. Most people would like to assume that in the end, it all "balances out" and that the "Great Men" were just fabrications of undiscovered (or hidden) vice.

People like to remain safe in their moral mediocrity.

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Re: Do "Great Men" exist?
[info]xander25
2008-05-30 05:47 am UTC (link)
"That was a question fielded in a history/literature course once. Out of a class of 20, 4 people (including myself and my boyfriend) believed that "Great Men" (and presumably women) did in fact exist. That some men in history did try to achieve a greater moral competence and had significant success.
That was apparently the wrong answer for the purposes of the course (which I dropped). The "right" answer was deeply rooted in the belief of the unavoidable darkness in every human psyche, particularly for successful men for whom temptations would be greater."

This is the biggest reason why I am dreading returning to school this fall (some of my friends think I should not, but some school, even when bad I imagine is better than none at all). My last school experience consisted in me getting into a debate with the teacher whether math was logical or not. *sigh*

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Re: Do "Great Men" exist?
[info]razorsmile
2008-06-01 09:21 pm UTC (link)
My last school experience consisted in me getting into a debate with the teacher whether math was logical or not. *sigh*

Sorry to go off-topic here but I am compelled to ask: how did this argument even start and what side of it was the teacher on?

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Re: Do "Great Men" exist?
[info]bibliophile112
2008-05-31 03:12 am UTC (link)
As much as I agree with you concerning the existance of great men I must disagree with you concerning Clinton. I think his actions were permited, simply because he was very well liked, not unlike JFK.

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Re: Do "Great Men" exist?
[info]juliet_winters
2008-05-31 10:11 am UTC (link)
Yet every time the argument comes up about how he certainly should have been setting a better example as President of the United States, the Dems I know all shrugged, smiled, and said it was really a personal decision had nothing to do with his ability to hold office. That everyone has his demons, his failings, etc.
Yes, but most of us wrestle with them a little more successfully--and not on the White House carpet. I find it interesting that now that we have a much more moral president in the White House there is absolutely no compassion for his slightest slips or determination to adhere to principles from these same people.

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[info]xander25
2008-05-30 05:32 am UTC (link)
"2. In the logical point, you speak of punishments fitting the crime, but in every hypothetical we have discussed so far, we are discussing a situation where the act has no consequences after 31 minutes. In any case, this is a red herring on your part: I urge you to contemplate that a real man does what is right because it is right, not because someone may punish or not punish him for doing it. Unjust law punish men for doing what is right rather than what is wrong: the consequences in such cases are reversed from what they ought to be. While cowardly and practical men accede to unjust laws, in order to avoid the consequences, just men seek justice, and defy the laws that abridge justice, and they damn the consequences. "

Speaking of which...just saw "Man for all Seasons" yesterday. Loved it!

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Giving the Devil the Benefit of Law
[info]johncwright
2008-05-30 05:06 pm UTC (link)
"Speaking of which...just saw "Man for all Seasons" yesterday. Loved it!"

It is a great movie. My favorite line of all time about justice is in it.

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

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Re: Giving the Devil the Benefit of Law
[info]adt6247
2008-05-30 08:02 pm UTC (link)
That whole scene is simply incredible. I payed little attention to St. Thomas More until watching this movie. He's such a man, and I pray that I have the courage to act as he does, as well as the mental clarity and fortitude.

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Re: Giving the Devil the Benefit of Law
[info]flaminphonebook
2008-05-30 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I like when Rich is begging Sir Thomas:

Rich: Employ me.
More: No.
Rich: Employ me!
More: No.
Rich: I implore you to employ me!

OK, he didn't say that last line, but he should have.

And I am of course writing a response to the post, but it's taking a while and I'm throwing a dinner party tonight. Hope to have it up by Sunday.

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[info]flaminphonebook
2008-06-02 01:35 am UTC (link)
And it's Sunday.

It is, indeed, an external argument only, concerned with the use of force, and the proper restriction of the use of Courts of Law. The counter-argument is about morals, that is, an internal argument, concerned with what a man ought to do, he himself with his own life and soul; the counter-argument is nowise concerned with what the state is allowed to compel its freeborn subjects to do. The conversations are on different topics.

True enough, and there will be scenarios in this discussion where my arguments will be null and void. Still, when someone proposes some law or regulation to curtail some individual right, I would like to hear a rebuttal before they put it on the books. That said, let's dive in.

Does a practical interest in preferring happiness to unhappiness tell me it is in my best interest to attend to the content of my thoughts, and the nature of my character?

Not always. It sometimes tells you that the best interest is in changing the situation to attend to your thoughts and character for you. Sometimes it is in your interest to adjust, but even if you do not, that is not a moral issue. If you choose a certain option, you may lose happiness or gain misery, or you may shorten your life. But that decision does not necessarily carry the stigma of immorality. It may be an issue of semantics, but from my point of view, there is, between a man on an island who feels the pain of hunger because he doesn't know how to get food and a man in society who feels the pain of incarceration for being a criminal, a difference in kind that the word “immorality” cannot permissibly be stretched over. “Folly” is a better word for the sort of error that does not warrant a judgment.

Is there truly and honestly no moral rule to consult before I decide whether to read and study these books rather than use them for kindling? Is it merely like preferring pie to cake, a matter of mere taste only, whether I seek comfort from the Bible or the writings of Seneca rather than seek distraction from a convenient porn magazine?

A more important question is this: do the content of my thoughts, even if I am alone on an island, have real consequence on the content of my character?


Forgive me if I think of these things in the language of my own discipline, statistics, but this strikes me as an issue of expected value versus variance. If you use the porn and chemicals, you will get a cheap thrill at almost no effort. If you read the books, you will get a greater return, but for a cost of much worth. To pick some numbers out of the air, it's a choice between receiving 200 utils for spending 10, or receiving 1000 utils for spending 750. The latter is the better deal in terms of expected value, but worse in terms of variance.

This is the way of the world. The return is always better at the large scale than at the small. Buying a case of product from the warehouse store is a better deal than buying one unit at the grocery store. Working a twenty-year career at one occupation is more financially rewarding than twenty one-year careers.

But yes, it is a matter of mere taste whether one chooses to invest deeply for large rewards, or shortly for small rewards. Failure to create is not the same as destroying, and even if it were, failure to create at the optimum rate is certainly not the same as destroying.

My reasoning here is that only the perfectible should be measured against the perfect. A room can be completely clean, and if it is not, then it is dirty. A man may be completely healthy, and if he is not, then he is ill. But what does it mean to say that a man is completely enlightened or completely intelligent? There is always potential for more. So long as a man fulfills his basic duties of non-violence toward others and wisdom toward himself, anything else I consider to be a bonus. Our steady climb from the cave tribe to the company on the penthouse of a skyscraper is the measure of our extra, our willingness to go beyond. But the tribe in the cave was not immoral or even foolish for not building skyscrapers. They were simply limited, and no more opprobrium than that applies to the man who likes his pornography and his liquor.

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[info]flaminphonebook
2008-06-02 01:35 am UTC (link)
Should I listen to my conscience even when my base desires for false pleasures urges me not to?

By “false pleasures” here I mean those pleasures that betray you; the one that promise you happiness, but never deliver on their promises— the pleasures that deliver pleasure only at first, and later become a grief, or even torment. I note in passing that the Enlightenment idea of letting each man attend to his own pursuit of pleasure seems not to recognize this category. It is merely a blind spot in their philosophy, a blank spot in their minds. Even though everyone in real life knows, or has heard of, drunks and gamblers and adulterers and gluttons whose inordinate pleasures, escaping all moderate control, drive them like a Napoleonic cavalryman riding his foaming horse to death, somehow the modern thinkers seem not to acknowledge that such men, such ruined lives, exist.


I acknowledge the existence of the men and the ruined lives; I do not concede that it is always the result. I know a gentleman who loves his drink. Beer, wine, vodka, whiskey, liqueurs, he drinks them and in quantity. Yet he is happy, successful, and has many friends who love and respect him. This sort of man is passed over by Christians and other advocates of temperance. To prohibit this man from enjoying his alcohol is just as cruel as enabling the sort of man you say I overlook.

So my answer is yes, you should listen to your conscience, with emphasis on the word your. There may be a categorical imperative, but I do not believe there is a single such imperative for all people, everywhere. And you should “talk” to your conscience as well, negotiate with it as to what are the real dangers and what are the real pleasures. One can listen to his conscience without becoming a slave to it.

Do you grant that it is impractical not to attend to the content of one's own thought or one's own character? Do you agree that the unexamined life is not worth living?

I do not. I agree that I do not wish to live my life unexamined, but I am not so bold as to make that assessment for my fellow men. I admit that a general examination of life would certainly aid me, but it is not a claim I have the right to make. If a person follows a religion because it is the faith of his parents, or a philosophy because it was the first book on the library shelf, it is presumptuous of me to seek him out and attempt to spur him to other methodologies. If he begins to make statements based on that faith or philosophy, then I respond by demanding his examination and his reason, but if he's willing to mind his own business, I will not stand against him.

Practicality, then, demands that the Epicurean, the Stoic, and the Christian take steps to carry out his program for his life. Practicality says he cannot achieve his ends unless he finds the means proportionate to those ends. Common sense observes that no one can end up with a good character, a well-tempered soul, merely by undisciplined chance and accident. If this is the goal, one must make an effort to achieve it. The Epicurean, the Stoic, and the Christian, all three, would characterize their effort to achieve self-command as a moral effort. Is their characterization correct?

Only if you apply the same characterization to the Hedonist, the Utilitarian, and the Egoist. If you're saying that the measure of the means to the ends is the measure of the morality of the means, then the Egoist should make a disciplined effort to receive complements and the Hedonist to attain pleasure. That the effort needed for the goals is less is irrelevant.

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[info]flaminphonebook
2008-06-02 01:36 am UTC (link)
You mention the impracticality of attempting to achieve self-control on the grounds that some thoughts are involuntary, some reactions not able to be controlled. I respectfully submit that the fact that some men have more or less control over their thoughts does not change the moral calculation involved.

And I respectfully reject your submission because it's not the claim I made. I said it was impractical to make a moral call on the grounds that some thoughts are involuntary. Whether or not you control the thoughts is a separate issue. But if two men walking down the street encounter a comely young lady, and one has a lustful thought, while the other does not, even if you know the thoughts of the men, I don't see how you can judge the first man in any way inferior to the second.

In other words, the argument that, because some involuntary thoughts exist, we should be excused us from any moral judgment about any thought, simply does not follow. The argument would follow if and only if no thoughts whatsoever were voluntary, for then and then only would there be no accountability for the content of thought and character. As it is, in real life, those thoughts that are voluntary would still fall under a moral rule.

True, but failure to amend or erase an involuntary thought is not itself a voluntary thought.

2. In the logical point, you speak of punishments fitting the crime, but in every hypothetical we have discussed so far, we are discussing a situation where the act has no consequences after 31 minutes. In any case, this is a red herring on your part: I urge you to contemplate that a real man does what is right because it is right, not because someone may punish or not punish him for doing it. Unjust law punish men for doing what is right rather than what is wrong: the consequences in such cases are reversed from what they ought to be. While cowardly and practical men accede to unjust laws, in order to avoid the consequences, just men seek justice, and defy the laws that abridge justice, and they damn the consequences.

But why a man does right or wrong is not a matter for law to decide. You cited it yourself: even the devil has the benefit of law, and even though we know his heart is black and that he wishes nothing but ill, were he to settle in our fair country, we should be obliged to keep hands off him until he actually committed his devilry, and if he kept his dark thoughts to himself, we should not even speak against him.

You also argue thus: “So to be perfectly consistent, you may judge my thoughts as you like, save that you may not give voice to your judgments, and I may respond in kind by judging the thought of your judgment, and so ad infinitum. I say that thoughts are no moral evil, therefore disagreeing with that thought is also no moral evil.”

Here I apologize and confess myself baffled. I simply cannot follow what you are saying. I do not see why “to be perfectly consistent” I cannot voice my judgments about your thoughts, even if I use no force to coerce you to agree with my judgments.


Because you are not voicing your judgments against my thoughts, but against the evidence of them—my speech. My private thoughts, to which I give no voice, you may judge in your thoughts, and neither shall know the other.

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[info]flaminphonebook
2008-06-02 01:36 am UTC (link)
Criticism is not trespass nor assault; it is not even slander. I do not see why your ability to disagree leads to “ad infinitum” or what your point is. Are you arguing we must avoid an infinite regress? No such point is in evidence. When two men disagree, the argument might indeed continue without conclusion; or one man or both might modify their conclusions after due consideration. The mere fact of the disagreement says nothing to the relative merits of the case. People disagree both about issues where no conclusion is possible, and about issues where one is.

I'm not speaking to the truth of separate arguments, but to the morality of separate axioms. If you say, “Some statements are immoral to make,” and I respond, “No statements are immoral, so your statement is inaccurate,” and you say, “That statement is also immoral,” to which I respond, “That statement is also inaccurate;” that is the sort of ad infinitum I'm talking about. When two people have differing first principles, it is difficult to achieve middle ground. Thus an exchange I've had a few times that typifies what I'm trying to say:

Other person: “You should be more unselfish.”
Me: “What's in it for me?”

I have contempt for those who yield sovereignty of their reason to their appetites.

So do I. But a sovereign has powers other than execution. It is possible to attach reason to the satiation of an appetite. I can find reasons for my appetites in the biological sense, in the evolutionary sense, in the economic sense, and so forth. From there, I can determine how to proceed.

Example: if I have the desire to kill a rival at work, I can sit and reason and conclude that my it is more efficient to simply work harder; that it is his right to live and that I may not violate it; that if I kill one person another may kill me. That, by my emotions, is a far better procedure than “Kill-> Bad!!!! Stop!! No think!!!”

I don't understand the idea that "if there is a morality of the mind, then there is no situation where man has full license without control." What do those words mean? Full license to do what? Why would such a license be desirable?

Full license to think, and to feel, and to be human. Where there is no life, the universe acts with full license to follow its own physical laws, with no human interference. If there is a will behind it, that will has full license. It would be desirable because the nature of desire is that you want the target. Even simply identifying the targets of desire would be a platonic reflection of having them.

The situation where every man has full and absolute power to indulge any desire that happened to crop up in his imaginings, wholesome or perverse, moderate or gross, strikes me as the condition of Hell, and a particularly diabolic form of self-torture at that. I am sure Sartre could write an interesting play on the theme.

Strange, because it strikes me as the condition of an Eden with no forbidden fruit.

The power to set aside the desire to eat the moon is given to men; whether they chose to exercise and strengthen it, or to undermine and weaken it, is the first and paramount decision of moral reasoning.

To set aside, yes. But never to forget it, never to destroy it, never to decry it. And never, in the presence of abundance, to shun it. If god should make the moon edible and replaceable, and the child or the man still sets aside his desire, then that is as great a tragedy as if he tries to fulfill it in the absence of such a miracle.

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Confusion
[info]johncwright
2008-06-03 04:33 am UTC (link)
I mean no offense, but I simply do not understand your responses. They all seem to be irrelevant. Perhaps it is merely my shortcomings that does not allow me to follow the train of thought involved, but there seems to be steps missing in your chain of reasoning, to the point where I cannot tell even if we are discussing the same topic.

Let me use one example that will stand for many others.

Me: Does a practical interest in preferring happiness to unhappiness tell me it is in my best interest to attend to the content of my thoughts, and the nature of my character?

You: Not always. It sometimes tells you that the best interest is in changing the situation to attend to your thoughts and character for you. Sometimes it is in your interest to adjust, but even if you do not, that is not a moral issue. If you choose a certain option, you may lose happiness or gain misery, or you may shorten your life. But that decision does not necessarily carry the stigma of immorality.

This reply is irrelevant. Was the question unclear? To break the question down into bitesized bits, what I asked was:
(1) Does a man's happiness depend on the content of his character?
(2) Is the content of his character depend on his thoughts?
(3) Does a man's happiness depend on his thoughts?
(4) If he wishes to achieve happiness, as a practical matter, must he not therefore attend to his thoughts?

You answered that sometimes some undefined interest is also served by altering his surrounding environment. Well, that may be true or it may not be true, but in any case, it is no part of this discussion. I asked you if a man had an interest in his happiness, if that interest was served by the things that in a cause-and-effect way lead to his happiness, and you answered that his interest in some other thing might make him interested also in another thing.

If I say, "Do you need airplane glue to build a model airplane?" it is no answer to say, "I do not need airplane glue to build a ship in a bottle." The reply is true, but irrelevant.

In the next sentence you start talking about morality and its stigma, whatever that means. Later, perhaps, I asked you your opinion of man's search for moral character, but this question was about a practical search for happiness. To say that a man's search for happiness does not necessary lead him to morality or to immortality is (1) a true statement and (2) entirely irrelevant to the question asked.

In this question and others, you will sort of admit the answer, and then offer a distinction or qualification that makes no difference -- that is irrelevant -- and harp on this qualification as if it changes the question involved.

I hope you will not be offended if I ask to be excused from the discussion at this point. The responses are a little too stream-of-consciousness for me: no offense, but I don't see how what you are talking about is related to anything I am talking about.

What I really think is going on – if I may be blunt – is that you have a blind spot in your thinking. Whenever I talk about self-control or self-command, your reply is meaningless: null signal. You do not have a category in your mind for this concept: it means nothing to you. Nonetheless, self-control is a real thing with real-world consequences, including whether or not a man's appetites and desires torment him or serve him. When a man's desires are habituated to his reason, so that he feels what he thinks he ought to feel, and is motivated to do what he thinks he ought to be moved to do, we call this virtue. There is no way of expressing this concept in your vocabulary. In the Newspeak of Big Brother, there is no way of expressing the concept of liberty. Such limits on conceptual vocabulary involve a mental trap; a blind spot.

What you cannot answer questions about, you cannot think about. What you cannot think about, you leave to chance to decide in your life. Will you be a virtuous man or a vicious one? If you make no choice, what are the odd that the answer will be the one you should have chosen?

If you would like your model of the world to reflect reality, I humbly suggest you find some way to fit in the concept of self-command, some way to deal with it. You cannot make it not exist merely by defining it as non-existent.

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Re: Confusion
[info]flaminphonebook
2008-06-03 10:52 am UTC (link)


What I really think is going on – if I may be blunt – is that you have a blind spot in your thinking. Whenever I talk about self-control or self-command, your reply is meaningless: null signal. You do not have a category in your mind for this concept: it means nothing to you. Nonetheless, self-control is a real thing with real-world consequences, including whether or not a man's appetites and desires torment him or serve him. When a man's desires are habituated to his reason, so that he feels what he thinks he ought to feel, and is motivated to do what he thinks he ought to be moved to do, we call this virtue. There is no way of expressing this concept in your vocabulary. In the Newspeak of Big Brother, there is no way of expressing the concept of liberty. Such limits on conceptual vocabulary involve a mental trap; a blind spot.


You are right: I cannot think of the concept of "ought" save in terms of fulfilling a human desire, nor of "virtue" except as regards one man's happiness. I will think long on this subject to see if the concepts cannot be divorced. If I find an error I thank you for pointing it out. If not, I thank you anyway.

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Duty and Desire
[info]johncwright
2008-06-05 10:59 pm UTC (link)
"If I find an error I thank you for pointing it out. If not, I thank you anyway."

Friend, you are more kind to me that I deserve. I think my comment was rather too pointed, but you have a magnanimous spirit, for which I thank you.

Let me tell you, if it helps, why I believe "ought" means something even outside of human desire.

Let us suppose, just for the sake of argument, that I woke up one day in a universe where one of the ethical laws was that it was a matter of duty that a father care for his child. Let us further suppose I fathered a child.

On Monday, I love the child with the natural parental fatherly love, and so changing diapers and sending the kid to college, telling him the facts of life and spanking him when he steals are all something my desires and appetites incline me to do.

On Tuesday, after I loose my wife in a horrific war, see my house flattened by a tornado, and find myself exposed to the Emotion-Control Ray of Ming the Merciless of Mongo, for some reason I find that my natural inclinations, my appetites and desires, no longer incline me toward parent affection for junior. Instead, it is my firm desire to drink myself into nightly stupor with hard liquor, or maybe sterno, get into fistfights in bars, gamble away my rent money, curse God and die.

So instead of changing the baby's diaper next time he cries, I leave him in a nearby trashcan for the garbage man to pick up.

Now, at this point two people come by: one is my Mother, who criticizes my life choices, and tells me that I should care for my son (her grandson) whether I want to or not. She explains the concept of DUTY is the concept that you do what you ought to do, whether or not it is what you feel like doing at the moment.

Fathering a child is an act as final and as irrevocable as signing a contract or joining the army. Once you do it, you have an obligation. No one, not even Ayn Rand, breaks her signed contract just because she does not feel like getting out of bed that day. So Mom argues.

The other person to show up at my door is Caesar Leviathan, King and Emperor and representative of the power of the State. With him are is the Constable, Officer Friendly, and Jack Ketch, the Royal Executioner. Caesar explains that Parliament have made it illegal in this land to kill another human being, no matter how small, and that, according to the jurists and philosophers of this universe, exposing a baby, throwing a helpless bairn onto the rubbish heap, is an act of parent neglect akin to murder. Furthermore the Truant Officer is also here because I did not send my child to school as required by law, which says parents must educate their children.

It is immoral for a father to abandon his infant baby on a trash heap to die? Does Caesar have any right to make a law that will punish me if I kill my child through neglect of my parental duty?

Is the obligation of a father toward his child a matter of his desires and appetites only, or does the duty exist even when his parental desires (thanks to Ming's evil Emotion Brainwash Machine) go away?

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Coercion and Criticism
[info]johncwright
2008-06-05 11:03 pm UTC (link)
I forgot to add my final question. Even if we decide, as firm Objectivist libertarians and all-around anarchists that Caesar has no right to enforce a moral law on me by coercion, does my Mother nevertheless still have a right to criticize me?

Even if only nonviolent moral suasion is used, may it be used in this case? I submit that if it is right for her, even if my parental desires do not exist, to talk me into not letting the baby die of neglect, than the moral rule exists whether or not the parental desires exist.

In other words, if a man can be talked into doing something as a matter of duty that he does not desire to do, then the word "duty" refers to something not the same as desire.

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[info]sun_stealer
2008-06-10 07:05 pm UTC (link)
"If you use the porn and chemicals, you will get a cheap thrill at almost no effort. If you read the books, you will get a greater return, but for a cost of much worth. To pick some numbers out of the air, it's a choice between receiving 200 utils for spending 10, or receiving 1000 utils for spending 750."

I will make sure to buy only books whose utils earned far exceeded their util cost.

In the same way, if I spot cheese on a mouse trap ... sure that might cost me 10 utils but I might be quick enough not to get hurt by the trap, the movement of my hand costing 2 util. Either way, i get a crumble of ricotta cheese worth eleventy billion utils.

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