John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2008-12-01 10:29:00
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On the same topic
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTM1Y2MyZjMwZTM1ZmM2N2Y5ODdmZWNjMWFkYjZiM2Q=

Here is an article worth reading, for those of you who think fighting the Jihad is counterproductive for the worldly goal of killing Jihadists. Pay careful attention to the last paragraph, where the armed police officers refused to shoot back at Jihadist opening fire on a crowded railroad platform:

**********************

Lost Illusions
What really happened in Bombay.

By Arthur Herman
It’s been fascinating, but also disheartening, to watch the mainstream media completely miss the real story about the 60-hour terrorist rampage in Bombay, India — which may have killed as many as 300 people, and has certainly injured hundreds more. What died in Bombay — besides scores of innocent people in their hotel rooms and at the Bombay Jewish Cultural Center and on the blood-drenched platform at Chatrapathi Sivaji railway terminal — were certain illusions about the war on terror, and how to deal with terrorists.

One of those illusions is about who is fighting whom in the war on terror.

Many put the blame for the attack on years of Indian-Pakistani hostility and tension. In fact, relations between the two countries have never been warmer. This past month, Pakistan’s new president stunned and delighted Indians by publicly renouncing any first use of nuclear weapons. Violence in Kashmir, the principal bone of contention between India and Pakistan since 1947, is on the decline. Before the Bombay attacks, politicians were scheduled to start talks on permitting trade across the region’s Line of Control, so that Hindu farmers in Indian Kashmir can sell their wheat or a used tractor to Muslim farmers in Pakistani Kashmir.

This is precisely what the terrorists don’t want, of course. It’s the fact that tensions over Kashmir are diminishing that prompted them to attack on the November 28 — just as al-Qaeda blew up Samarra’s Golden Mosque in Iraq back in 2006 in order to keep Shias and Sunnis hating and killing each other. The illusion that formal agreements between peoples and governments — whether between India and Pakistan or Israel and the Palestinian Authority — can somehow defuse the terrorist problem was the among the first casualties in Bombay. Terrorists see it the other way around: the relaxation of tensions is a problem requiring bloodshed.

Islamic terrorists don’t want justice or respect for their beliefs, or restoration of some imaginary homeland. They want violence and death. The duty of every government is to make sure that terrorists get them before they can deal them out. Pakistanis will never know peace, or peace with their neighbors in Afghanistan and India, until they finally and ruthlessly root out the terrorists in their midst.

The same goes for India. That was the second illusion that died in Bombay: that democratic nations can somehow opt out of the war on terror. India has largely operated on that assumption since 2001, even though it is home to the second-largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia, and wedged between two neighbors — Pakistan and Bangladesh — where Islamic terrorist groups operate in relative freedom.

The media here and in India seem to have forgotten that this was not the first round of mass death in Bombay. Bombings rocked the city back in the summer of 2005, killing more than 200, followed by bloody attacks on Jaipur and India’s high-tech capital, Bangalore, earlier this year.

In spite of this, India’s record on counterterrorism is abysmal, almost deliberately so. The government in New Delhi steadfastly maintains a wall of separation between law-enforcement agencies like the one that used to separate the FBI and CIA before the Patriot Act, and keeps counterterrorist units underfunded and undermanned. It has repeatedly given way to the demands of Islamic radical groups and fundamentalist lobbyists in the name of “cultural sensitivity.” India was the first non-Islamic country to ban Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses back in 1988.

India has no preventive detention laws; no laws to protect the identity of anti-terrorist witnesses; and no laws to allow domestic wiretapping without court order. In 2004, the new Congress Party government revoked India’s version of the Patriot Act, even as the Indian media was loudly condemning the U.S. for “torture” at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

In short, the Indian government has waged the war on terror in much the same way that liberals and many Democrats have been urging the U.S. to carry it out. The result is that more than 4,000 Indians have died in attacks since 2004 — more than any other nation in the war on terror besides Iraq.

At the Sivaji rail platform on the November 28, eyewitnesses told the Belfast Telegraph that armed Indian police refused to shoot back when the terrorists opened fire. Even when the terrorists stopped to reload their guns, someone screamed at the police: “Shoot them, they’re sitting ducks!” But the police did nothing, only to be gunned down like everyone else.

Sitting ducks. One reason the Bombay terrorists sought out Brits and Americans to kill is that they can’t get at them in their own countries. The latest report is that those “evil” U.S. intelligence agencies had actually intercepted threats about possible attacks on hotels in Bombay, and passed them on to their Indian counterparts — who then failed to take action.

Britain and the United States have learned how to deal effectively with terrorism the hard way. Maybe this time Indians will, as well.



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[info]jordan179
2008-12-01 03:49 pm UTC (link)
Sounds to me like the Indians got what they'd been asking for. Not what they deserved, but what they'd been asking for, if you see the difference.

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[info]robert_mitchell
2008-12-01 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Always tricky, trying to keep your freedoms. The losses from terrorism are quite small in the scheme of things. Much like the lives lost to guns each year here because of the second amendment. At what point does it stop being "acceptable losses" and become "paying the Dane-guild"? I don't know, and will not judge the Indians because of that.

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[info]johncwright
2008-12-01 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Does anyone aside from me see a logical contradiction between this sentence:
"Always tricky, trying to keep your freedoms." And this: "Much like the lives lost to guns each year here because of the second amendment." ?

The paradox I see is that there are no rights in any practical sense absent the right to bear arms. The only argument that matters is the final argument of kings.

So, the inability to pass victim disarmament laws is to blame for crimes where a weapon was used? I suggest, rather, that to get a meaningful number, you would have to factor out, first, those weapons that would have been obtained illegally even if the Second Amendment were not in place, and, second, those weapons which would have been obtained legally even if later used illegally even if the Second Amendment were not in place. Then you would have to compare that to the number of crime deterred or stopped by lawful use of fire-arms. Those who have done the painstaking work of finding this meaningful number, and I mean John Lott, have found that firearm regulation increases crime and firearm liberty decreases it in America.

Now, all this assumes we should adopt a 'consequentialist' view of political economy, which is not an assumption I can grant without reservation. I would venture to say that my liberties do not evaporate even if my neighbors abuse theirs. My rights do not depend on bean-counters juggling statistics.

"At what point does it stop being "acceptable losses" and become "paying the Dane-guild"? I don't know, and will not judge the Indians because of that."

Well, I will point out again that the armed police officers, according to the witness quoted in the article, failed to open fire on the Jihadists while the Jihadists were shooting into a crowd in a railway station.

The primary function of the state, the only good reason for having a state at all, is to keep the peace and enforce covenants. In other words, the first duty of the state is the protection of its subjects from tumult insurrection, crime, and acts of war.

The Indian government here is accused of failing to do that, on the grounds of their loyalty to an ideology that places political correctness and appeasement above self-protection. If the accusation is sound, and if there is no counter-argument to outweigh it, I would say that it is wrong not to you your judgment and to judge the case.

You have it exactly backward. You seem to think law and order is a Danegeld paid to the policemen. No. The Danegeld, what the barbarians demand, is political correctness. They demand the suppression of SATANIC VERSES. That was paid in India. The Danes, the modern barbarians, were encouraged and now have committed an act of war.

Weakness is provocative.

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[info]robert_mitchell
2008-12-01 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for replying sir. As to your first point, I have no problem with guns, or the second amendment, which I read as the right of armed revolt. But there are many who would wiling give up that freedom to be "safer". I think we both agree they are short sighted fools. What I was trying to do, in my clumsy way, was compare the loss of freedom inherent in stopping terrorist attacks before they happen, with the gun grabbers attempts to stop gun deaths before they happen. At what point is it ok for the government to lock up someone before they have done anything violent? The Indian policemen certainly failed in their duty. Mr. Jordan seemed to be judging the Indian government for not being more proactive, and that's where I get itchy. "They were talking bad about the government! Arrest them!", I think we both agree, would be a shameless violation of freedom of speech. The question for any government worried about freedom is how detailed such speech should be before they act on it, and how much they go looking for it in quite corners. Thus, the idea of "acceptable losses". I do not think of Danegeld as something we pay to the police. There are choices made between Freedom and Security, and many disagree with where the choices should be made. You have wisely lectured us on this very issue in the past.

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[info]eonomine88
2008-12-01 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Dude...I think it goes without saying that if someone is shooting at civilians, you take out the shooters. Duh. You also hunt down and eliminate terrorist cells. Like I said before, these are necessary things.

My proposal is that violence should only be used in defense. Offense, at least at this point in time, should remain in the realm of the mind only. We shouldn't be embarking on any "end of all evil" crusades into other people's countries unless they directly attack us or pose an immediate, physical threat.

Saying we need another Mooreslayer is just inflammatory and somewhat barbaric. We should not bloody our hands as the "enemy" does. We are better than our opposition.

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[info]robert_mitchell
2008-12-01 04:44 pm UTC (link)
Defense is a tricky concept. Immediate, physical threat? To how many? Is saying "I am an American citizen" enough to get the Armed forces to come for you? Many say yes. Tricky, when dealing with an opponent that is "counting coup". And when we are a tolerant people, until the camel breaks.

And, of course, saying we are better then our opposition is wrong. We are all sinners, doing what we can. And if we bloody our hands, we shall not do it as the "enemy" does. We will level their cities, we will poison their wells, we will remake the survivors in our image, or they will die. "Better"? It is to laugh.

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[info]howling_wolf
2008-12-02 02:26 am UTC (link)
We can't be better than our opposition of we're dead.

And who is to say that the Moor-slayer did not fight a defensive war? 300 Goths on a mountaintop against all of conquered Spain was not a defensive war? Isn't it what this is?

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[info]rlbell
2008-12-01 06:01 pm UTC (link)
The article does the british a disservice by painting their anti-terrorist efforts with the same brush as the american efforts. The british did not suspend the writ of habeous corpus for terror suspects, nor did they engage in sophistry to allow the use of rigorous interrogation practices. They even put a time limit on how long a suspect could be held without charge. There were even trials. The trials may have been rife with flaws, but they attempted to mete out justice.

The american efforts are an embarrassing example of the opposite extgreme of the indian efforts. The US war on terror uses methods even more extreme than the canadian War Measures Act, which imposed martial law and suspended our human rights, but did not systematically torture anybody.

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Canada and terrorism
[info]rlbell
2008-12-01 06:07 pm UTC (link)
While canadians have not had to deal islamic jihadists, we have experienced terror attacks. The FLQ crisis was homegrown terrorists trying to violently seperate Quebec from Canada, and homegrown armenian terrorists tried, with some success, to kill turkish diplomats.

I still think that Bush should have solved the problem of getting warrants for wiretaps by appointing more judges to hear the requests.

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