John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2009-03-10 15:53:00
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Who Watches the WATCHMEN? I did.

SPOILER ALERT. Many, many spoilers below. I discuss the surprise ending and several plot twists.

CHILDREN ALERT. Do not take any children to see this film. It is not a superhero movie. It is an antisuperhero movie. It is deliberately brutal, gross and bloody where comic books would use sanitized comic-booky violence. It is deliberately lewd where comic books would be sweet and romantic. It is ironic and unheroic and dark and nasty where comic books would be more realistic. Not for kids.

I saw this movie the opening weekend, and I wanted to write a review. My only difficulty is that, for once, I do not have a strong opinion. I usually have a strong opinion about everything, but not this. The attractive things about the movie did not attract me that strongly. The repulsive things did not repel me that much, since I am mostly desensitized to movie gore. My response to the film was lukewarm.

The oddest thing that happened when I saw this film is that I suddenly realized that I was no longer a fan of Alan Moore’s WATCHMEN. I had been a fan for years.

In this, the movie is unique. I do not think I have ever seen a film adaptation that persuaded me to admire the source material less. This particular emperor has no clothes, and his blue penis is showing (more on this later). I walked out of the theater trying to remember what it was I had once liked and enjoyed in this unrelentingly bleak, nihilistic, dark, morbid, cynical and overcomplicated world of Alan Moore’s imagination.

The movie, on a certain level, is well done, and many scenes are visually splendid. The fight scenes are well choreographed and have a stylish violence to them. Other scenes are disgustingly bloody or laughably lewd, however. The plot hangs together without any glaring plotholes, and as a detective story, it reveals the central murder mystery in a satisfactory fashion.

Let me summarize the film, and then talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.

  1. Summary

SPOILER ALERT. Do not read this if you mean to see the movie.

The film concerns an alternate version of Earth, where the presence of real costumed adventurers changed the course of history. These masked vigilantes fought crime in the 1930’s and 1940’s, and allowed the United States a rapid victory in Viet Nam, and this in turn led to Nixon reaching FDR-like levels of popularity, and being re-elected for a third and fourth term. In a comical reversal of historical roles, the Americans invade Afghanistan, and the Soviets threaten nuclear war. World thermonuclear destruction looms. The 1971 police strike in New York, in this world, is exacerbated by the presence of the vigilantes, and, in response, the administration outlaws superheroes. All the masked superheroes retire, all but one.

So much is merely backstory. The main action begins when a man is brutally murdered. The one remaining unretired vigilante, Rorschach, investigates the crime, and discovers a secret room where the costume and equipment of another ex-crimefighter rest. The dead man was the Comedian, at one time Rorschach’s team-mate.

Rorschach thinks there may be a ‘mask-killer’ at work, and seeks to warn his fellow remaining ex-supers. These include Ozymandias ‘the smartest man in the world’ who now uses his super-intellect to accumulate an immense fortune and solve global problems like the energy crisis; Nite Owl, who sits alone in his basement next to his Owl Ship, living in his memories; Silk Specter, who is the dissatisfied lover of Doctor Manhattan, living on a military base where Dr. Manhattan is kept as a living weapon against a day of war. Dr. Manhattan is the only superhero with superhuman powers. He sees all time from the point of view of eternity, can bilocate and teleport and can reorganize matter at will. Dr. Manhattan, to whom all human drama is foreordained, is slowly losing his respect for human life.

Much of the film is the discovery of the past of these characters, their secrets, their crimes, their lies.

Dr. Manhattan exiles himself to Mars when it is discovered that his close friends have cancer, apparently caused by exposure to him. Rorschach’s relentless and brutal investigations reveal that Manhattan was framed, tricked into leaving earth, and that Ozymandias was behind it. Rorschach is lured into a police trap, and jailed, but meanwhile Nite Owl and Silk Specter have fallen in lust, fornicated copiously, now don their costumes and break Rorschach out of jail, where Rorschach is busily maiming inmates. Silk Specter goes to Mars and talks Manhattan into returning to Earth; Nite Owl and Rorschach travel to the Antarctica base of Ozymandias, to confront the supervillain in his lair.

The typical superhero-supervillain confrontation is subverted, however, when Ozymandias reveals that he has incinerated tens of thousands of innocent people in major cities around the world with a weapon that imitates Dr. Manhattan’s energy signature. As he planned, the world powers, frightened by a mutual foe and angry god, make peace. Nuclear war is averted, at least for now.

Ironically, it is Rorschach who refuses to go along with the charade, and is killed by Dr. Manhattan, who returns from Mars to kill him. The good doctor’s new-found respect for human life urges him brutally to murder his friend, in the name of the greater good. Dr. Manhattan returns to outer space to create life in his own image. Nite Owl and Silk Specter go off together, no doubt for more extended fornication scenes. Ozymandias lives happily ever after, except for the fact that Rorschach mailed his journal to an ultra-rightwing nutjob newspaper: the story closes with the dimwitted assistant at the newspaper reaching for the journal, that may undo the plans of the smartest man in the world. Roll credits.

2. The Good

Fans of the original will be delighted at the utterly faithful reproduction of the comic, sometime panel by panel, which has been brought to the big screen. On that merely technical level, the film is an admirable achievement.

I found myself interested in practically every scene, scene by scene, but not being interested in the film as a whole. Watching Rorschach break into a military base, or seeing the Owl Ship take off from an underwater dock, or observing a gigantic Doctor Manhattan striding through jungles as if it were underbrush while annihilating lesser beings by a mere gesture, all were impressive and memorable.

But the memorable images do not add up to much. A good example is the moment when, during a street riot, Nite Owl drops in a swirl of cape to the street. It looks Way Cool. You may have seen this moment in the ads for the movie: it sure looks impressive. But all that happens is that Nite Owl dismounts from his ship and goes to talk to the Comedian. And this scene itself goes nowhere, it is merely part of the character backstory, so we can know what a stinker the Comedian was. The Red White and Blue clad avenger chomps his cigar and chortles, “The American Dream? Yer looking at it!” and he shoots a tear gas canister into the back of a rioter drawing graffiti.

Much of the backstory has been trimmed down and streamlined, and, in my opinion, this was the best job of adaptation I have ever seen, ever. Nothing that was left out was necessary. (I contrast this with the recent HARRY POTTER movie, where the identity of the ‘Patronus’ stag that saves Harry goes unmentioned, as well as the names of the former owners of the Marauders’ Map. I contrast this with RETURN OF THE KING, which most foolishly left out the Scouring the Shire, thus missing a main point, if not the whole point, of the epic.)

The substitution of Doc Manhattan as the boogieman to scare the world powers into mutual peace was clever, and made even more sense than the comic book’s original ending, which used a giant space squid instead. Myself, I think audiences would have laughed, rather than been horrified, by a giant space squid. The fear of Earthmen for Dr. Manhattan, on the other hand, is amply justified.

Some reviewers have mocked the musical sound track. I find no fault in it. Many of the songs were referenced in the original comic in the place they appear in the film. “Two riders were approaching/ and the wind began to howl” for example, appears in the scene when Rorschach and Nite Owl approach the fortress in Antarctica.

Using the music of Phillip Glass, however, as the backdrop to Dr. Manhattan on Mars, when the superhero is constructing an intricate crystal city of clockwork was an inspired choice. The music and visuals in that scene conspired to produce a sense of awe.

I admit I laughed aloud with evil glee when Rorschach, locked in a prison with fifty or more criminals he caught, shouts to the cowering mob of convicts after he cruelly and efficiently kills a man with kitchen implements: “I am not locked in here with you. You are locked in here with ME!”

The donnybrook where Silk Specter and Nite Owl wade through hordes of evildoers during a prison riot to break Rorschach out of jail was as well done as any Hollywood fight scene.

There were not one or two, but a large number of scenes that had a thrilling or thoughtful or impressive or shocking effect, and they were all well done. Where the film is good, it is good. It never quite reaches the level of being great.

One charming thing the film did well was resurrect the look of the past. A shot of a flying fortress with Sally Jupiter painted on the nose in a cheesecake pose was spot on. The filth of pre-Giuliani New York was spot-on, graffiti and all. Not just props, but people: Look-alikes with fairly unobtrusive make-up did convincing imitations of the John McLaughlin, Pat Buchannan, Andy Warhol and Henry Kissinger, and so on. The only misstep was Richard Nixon, whom the make-up artist decided should have the nose of Pinocchio.

If you liked Rorschach or Nite Owl in the original, you will like the way they look and act in the film. Again, the adaptation was simply perfect.

3. The Bad

And yet…

For some reason I found myself looking at this film and thinking “This actor does a real fine impersonation of Rorschach, a cartoon character whom I liked and pitied, despite his warped ugliness” but I did not think, ”Here is the real Rorschach, whom I like and pity, despite his warped ugliness.” If I had not gone into the film already knowing and liking these characters, I would not have liked them. I was not drawn into the film the way I was drawn into the comic. I am not sure what was missing, but something was.

It is impossible to cram a twelve-issue miniseries into a two and a half hour movie. Even so, however, Zack Snyder, the film maker, could surely have done something to make the characters come alive. I remember when I read the comic, how heartfelt the pathos was. I felt sorry for Dr. Manhattan, for example, and for Nite Owl and Rorschach, and for the tangled relationship between Silk Specter and her mother. Some imponderable was missing, the heart and soul of it.

I like the idea of a retired superhero. I love the idea of a retired superhero. In fact, my first story I ever had printed was in a college newspaper, and it was the tale of Perseus, as an old man, living with his memories, called upon one last time to fight evil, long after he has lost the heart and thews for the deed. Look at the way Brad Bird handled this theme in THE INCREDIBLES. Another example might be the way the character of Bruce Wayne is handled in the cartoon BATMAN BEYOND. No matter how strong he was in his golden, glory days, even the superhero merits some sympathy when he has nothing to do but sit by his old costume, in his old trophy room, and drink beer. Ah, but then when the trumpets blow, and Evil once again rears its arrogant head, must our aged hero don his antique panoply, take up his shield, and face a foe he no longer has the strength to match? The character of Theoden in THE TWO TOWERS embodied this same sentiment. It gives the superhuman a human side. It makes him come to life. The idea automatically calls to mind a certain pathos, a certain nostalgia, and most importantly a certain humanity, too often absent from superhero comics.

But that did not happen here. Even after two hours into the movie, I found myself still in the mind-set where you are waiting for it to start, waiting for the characters to come to life for you.

Now, the change might be in me rather than in the material. If so, I cannot say. I cannot point to specific things the comic did, or the film failed to do, which made the illusion fail for me, but fail it did.

The film is not merely bleak and nihilistic, it is superlatively, abundantly and over-self-indulgently bleak and nihilistic. The bombastic negativity involved in ‘deconstructing’ the superhero genre is on display in this film, and by its very nature, bombast is neither amusing, nor charming, nor nice. Nihilism is a bitter herb, perhaps appropriate for Passover, or Lent, or Ramadan, but not the stuff we normally associate with light and frothy fare like superhero comics. Vanilla with horseradish.

I realize it is supposed to be adult and hepcat to mock denigrate heroism, especially innocent children’s heroes, and I also realize it has been going on in comics since the 1980’s, thanks mostly to this comic currently being discussed.

But, as an adult, I no longer see things with childish eyes. I don’t believe all warriors are war-criminals or that all cops are crooked. The dread of global thermonuclear destruction no longer hangs over our political landscape; and, even if it did, as an adult I would not blame the Americans for the threat. The threat came from the Soviets. Cynicism seems like a pose to me, an act, a thing adolescent children do when they have a shallow idea of what it means to be grown-up. So a cynical film, no matter how well made, looks immature to me. The innocent simplicity of a normal superhero comic looks grown-up.

Some reviewers have said this film will spark debate. Maybe so, but I expect the debate will be as pedestrian as I found the movie: something to interest college students, perhaps. For example, the whole dramatic tension of the final scene rests on the notion that Ozymandias might be right in his deadly calculation of human life. But, for me at least, the concept of killing thousands to save millions is not one that has any particular traction in my imagination. It merely looks like evil, and not even the kind of romanticized evil we associate with dashing Pirates and handsome Jewel Thieves and majestic Darth Vader in a big black cape. It looks like raw, stinking, stupid Chairman Mao type evil: the kind that says you cannot make an omelet without murdering a million innocent people, and then kills a million innocent people and does not end up making an omelet after all.

The drama of the climax scene in this film rests on the kind of disorienting shock the reader feels when he realizes that the villain might be, in some cold or twisted way, a hero in his own eyes! It is supposed to make you pause and think.

But if you are old and wary curmudgeon, like me, there is no realization and no shock, and nothing to think about, because you have thought it out before, and you think that it is not expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, so that the whole nation not perish.

The central irony of having Ozymandias, the intellectual idealist, end up as a mass-murderer, whereas Rorschach, whose opening monologue says he is not willing to save the stinking city from its filth, end up as the tragic hero unwilling to compromise on principle, is noteworthy. It is a clever reversal of roles and expectations. But then Rorschach is killed by God Almighty, in the form of Dr. Manhattan, rather than by Ozymandias who just got done killing the Comedian and trapping Rorschach for the express purpose of hiding his master-crime; and therefore Ozzy has a motive to stop Rorschach, but Doc Manhattan does not really. Of course, this God Almighty is wind-up watchworks god in a wind-up watchworks universe with no watchmaker, and so, by express auctorial purpose, nothing he does has any motive, point, or purpose: everything is done as it is foreseen because it is foreseen. And since the master-crime of Ozymandias will either prove successful or prove futile depending on whether the halfwitted newsman picks up the wrong piece of mail from the crank file, even the acts of the smartest man in the world trying to save the world have no point or purpose.

And what is the point of having Nite Owl be impotent? Is this a sly statement that superhero comics have a Freudian component to them, perhaps? Or was it just to make us feel sorry for the guy, or to tell us he felt unmanned without his superheroic costume, or what? Whatever the intended point, I was merely annoyed.

I am annoyed because the author’s purpose, among others, was to denigrate something I adore, namely, superhero comics. Moore’s WATCHMEN is a satire on Charleston comic heroes. For those of you interested: Nite Owl is Blue Beetle; Rorschach is The Question; Dr. Manhattan is Captain Atom; Silk Spectre is Nightshade or maybe Black Canary; Ozymandias is Peter Cannon the Thunderbolt; Comedian is Peacemaker.

I am not a fan of Charleston comics. I never much cared for Blue Beetle, and I have never even heard of the characters that Ozymandias, Silk Specter, and Comedian are based on. I am familiar with, and indeed a fan of The Question, who is Objectivist Steve Dikto’s Objectivist paean to Objectivism: The Question is a perfectly remorseless because perfectly just character. Moore decided to portray him as a nutbag. I am not offended for the sake of The Question, merely because Moore is an artist, and therefore his Rorschach takes on a life of his own, and transcends the original satirical intent. Moore is not just denigrating Dikto. So, I am not here going to leap to the defense of Charleston comics, and complain how thoroughly Moore assassinated their characters. However, an element of denigration is not only present in the whole plot and theme of WATCHMEN, it is the central to the plot and theme.

The point of this pointless movie is to make superheroes look pointless, but moreso, to make the idea of heroics itself look pointless. The point was character assassination on a whole genre of characters.

Notice what is missing from both the film and the comic. It is hard to notice the absence, but once you notice it, it is as obvious as the lack of sympathetic victims in INTERVIEW WITH VAMPIRE (where, by no coincidence, only obnoxious people are killed by the vampires).

What is missing is heroics. Even when a high rise tenement is saved from a fire, no one expresses thanks to the superheroes. We see a pederast and his dogs being meat-cleavered to death, but no one is saved. The little girl is already dead. We see gangsters being blown into meaty chunks, but no hint of what their crimes were. Compare and contrast this with a scene in SPIDERMAN 2 where Spidey, at great personal risk, saves a trainload of people from a wreck, and the grateful people are willing to stand up even to the deadly Doc Octopus in gratitude. As I recall, not a person saved from the tenement fire says thank you to Nite Owl. Instead a bag lady tries to light her cigarette from the ship’s flamethrower, and Silk Specter swears at her.

4. The Ugly

With no fear of contradiction, I think I can say that this is an ugly, ugly movie. It is ugly visually and ugly spiritually.

The movie makers went out of their way to exaggerate the brutality of the violence involved, even more so than Alan Moore did. During a rape scene, the woman’s head is banged against a pool table over and over, for example. When some gangsters are blown to bloody bits, the camera lingers on their dripping blood and gore clinging to the ceiling. We see dogs fight over the severed leg of a little girl, her cute wee little shoe and sock still on the foot. When the comic has Rorschach burn a pederast to death offstage, in the movie we are treated to slow motion closeups of the blood and brain-goo flying up from the meat cleaver that the superhero plunges again and again into the bad guy’s skull. A man’s face is burned off this skull by a ladle of boiling cooking oil. Another man has his hands slowly cut off his arms by a buzz-saw; we are treated to a lingering shot of the stumps. And there is much breaking of bones, and we are treated to views of the compound fractures, with jags of bone protruding through torn skin. And there is a pregnant woman who is shot to death by the father of her child while he swears like a sailor.

And then there is Dr. Manhattan’s big blue penis. This is a penis movie, and there is a lot of penis. Lots of buttocks. Blue buttocks. Giant blue buttocks.

And there are two or three too many fornication scenes for my taste, and, I might add, for the taste of the audience I was with. I don’t think the film-makers meant the audience to laugh when Silk Specter and Nite Owl are playing “hide the pickle” in the Owl Ship. Malin Akerman is a perfectly attractive actress, and I am sure seeing her nipples bouncing and hips thrusting as she pantomimed the sexual act would normally be a treat for a healthy male audience, but the scene was filmed in what I can only call a sleazy and ridiculous fashion. I wonder what her mother thinks of this.

I was also distracted during the sex scene (or rather, ‘scenes’, since Nite Owl’s erection fails the first attempt) by wondering why these two were not married.

I realize that this is a terribly old-fashion thing to think, and that modern audiences like scene of women getting raped, beaten, and shot, as well as committing sex outside marriage, but nonetheless, it dulled my enjoyment of the movie, and it added to the ugliness. I am trying to picture Blue Beatle and Nightshade from Charleston comics doing the Wild Thang without wedlock, and the picture seems a mockery to me.

Far be it from me to claim these elements were not present in the original comic: but there is a difference between seeing a cartoon picture of a woman with red ink running down her face, and a color motion picture of a realistic-looking battered woman’s face on a giant screen in the multiplex, while she is being beaten and raped.

  1. Conclusion

In general, I would say the bad outweighs the good. There is something like corrosive carburetor exhaust the clings to the soul after seeing this movie. But, even so, I am hardly ready to denounce this film. The artistic achievement of the original comics is real: Alan Moore did something I had never seen before, and pulled the entire world of comics in a whole new direction. Now, it is not a direction I particularly like, but the new direction has treated comics with grown-up sobriety. This is a sobering film.

There were plenty of scenes I liked in the film, despite the fact that there were no heroes in it.

(There was a psychotic, self-absorbed smart guy, a psychotic, greasy vigilante in a trenchcoat, a black-ops assassin, an impotent has-been in an owl mask, and a self-absorbed harlot who flits from one lover to the next while bitching at her drunk mom. No heroes.)

Of course, there is many a literary work that has no particular heroes in it, and there is something of a relief, if you are in the mood for it, to watch a tale where the human beings have human flaws, and there is even a morbid joy in watching a tale where human beings have exaggerated flaws. That, I suppose, depends on what you are expecting when you walk in.

If you get queasy at make-believe violence, stay away. I am not particular in that regard.

(I remember when I watched ROBOCOP in the theater, the girl I was with was hiding her eyes. Then I noticed that what we were watching was a scene where a man is being torn slowly into chunks by a malfunctioning machine gun, and the spray of bullets was sending sprays of blood and viscera across the table and windows beyond. The scene was played for laughs. That was when I realized that the girl I was with was right to hide her eyes, and that I was wrong to be nonplussed. I had become callous, through overexposure, to a sight that, to a healthy soul, would be repugnant and horrid.)

So, if you are like me, the gross-out parts of this film will not gross you out. It is not as bad as some modern horror movies.

Some commentators have argued whether this film is conservative or liberal. I doubt this is a worthy argument to pursue. There is no heavy-handed symbolism here, and I think the point being made is about life in general, not about a particular political system or political party. This is not a mere piece of polemic like Phillip Pullman’s AMBER SPYGLASS, or Robert Heinlein’s heavy-handed STARSHIP TROOPERS. More to the point, it is not like V FOR VENDETTA.

The fact of the matter is Leftists are a confused bunch. In order to criticize the Right, they liken us to totalitarians and thugs, and so when they make films were heroes bash totalitarians and thugs, they wonder why we cheer and wave the flag. Seeing Luke Skywalker blow up the Death Star, to us, looks the same as if Captain America socked the Red Skull on the jaw: it does not look like a criticism of American imperialism. So, here. If there is some hidden criticism of Reagan dismantling the Soviet Union hidden somewhere in this movie, I was too inert to spot it.

The theme of the movie, if it had one, seemed to be that all life was infinitely precious, but ultimately futile, and that we are merely carried along by gears of the clockwork fate to weal or woe, in a machine that no god made. You can be like the Comedian, and laugh at the pointless joke, or be like Rorschach, and seek some pattern or symmetry in the meaningless blot, or be like Dr. Manhattan, and stand aside from life, or be like Ozymandias, and attempt to cut the Gordian knot. Perhaps the only thing to do is be like Nite Owl, and seek solace in a lover’s embrace. But the story neither condemns nor recommends which course a man might choose: it is a pitiless character study of human life and death, and, in the end, the story itself says nothing.

If you are a fan of normal superhero movies, like the X-MAN movies, SPIDERMAN or IRON MAN, or Alexander Salkind’s wondrous SUPERMAN, you may be disappointed if you walk in unwarned, because there is no large-scale superheroics here. You will not see the Wolverine mixing it up with Sabertooth, or Spidey saving Mary Jane, or Tony Stark cracking jokes and dogfighting a pair of F-22 fighterjets, or even Supes catching a helicopter in one hand.

WATCHMEN is not like this. Instead, it is detective story and character study (of some rather unsavory characters) with a few disconnected and pointless yet Way Cool fight scenes of graphic brutality. There is some gallows humor, and some bleak humor, but no humor. It is a story where the good guys lose, or get blown into a messy red stain on the snow.

By itself, the story is negative and bleak, oddly paced, and making an obscure self-referential point about superheroics that non-geeks might not grok. An ordinary person who reads mainstream books does not need to be told that we should not trust superheroes.

I would recommend this movie to fans of the comic, but urge anyone else to steer clear. It is a faithful reproduction of the comic, and if you liked the comic, you should like this.

But I am not planning to see it again. I would rather watch the first MORTAL KOMBAT movie one more time.




(102 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]marycatelli
2009-03-10 08:16 pm UTC (link)
The original was, of course, a 'deconstruction' of superheroism.

Alan Moore has admitted that its influence on comics was bad.

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[info]wyrdwood
2009-03-10 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Alan Moore followed his Muse when he wrote the book. He regrets how others, in its wake, instead just took the message that grim and gritty was the direction comics needed to go. He has since tried to make up for that error with more gee-whiz fun comics like Supreme and Tom Strong, all the while still doing his more adult work, like From Hell and Lost Girls. Now, he seems to be once more fed-up with superheroes and more interested in his "grand unified field theory of literature" with the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen series. This series, like Watchmen, deconstructs traditional heroes (like Allen Quaterman). It's the villains he seems more interested in here: Hyde and The Invisible Man are truly monstrous.

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(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2009-03-11 10:14 am UTC
BORING
[info]cakoenig
2009-03-10 08:30 pm UTC (link)
I was prepared to like this movie. My 18-year-old daughter (who did not accompany us) told me the plot.

It was indeed, an ugly movie. But worse than that, it was boring. The sex scenes were boring -- no mean feat. I kept thinking about how huge Nite Owl's butt looked on screen. No chemistry at all.

Out of all the characters, Rorschach was my favorite. In a twisted, very twisted way, he had the purest heart of all the "superheros." He preferred truth to lies, even when those lies seemed to be the best path to peace. He saw through the tortured moral reasoning of Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan.

While Rorschach wasn't exactly a shining beacon of morality himself, most of his violence was directed against those who had harmed others, or who were about to hurt him. I noticed that with the exception of the crime boss in prison, the other two fellows were done in by their own actions. The boiled-in-oil guy was about to stab Rorschach with a shiv. Of course, I closed my eyes for most of the really graphic stuff, so I'll have to take your word (and my husband's) for how realistic it looked.

But mostly I was bored. Way more could have been cut out without losing the essential storyline.

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[info]haikujaguar
2009-03-10 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Ugh, the one glimpse I got of Robocop between my spread fingers gave me nightmares for years. That is not hyperbole.

I feel no desire to see this movie! Thank you for reviewing it so as to save me the heartache. :P

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[info]kokorognosis
2009-03-10 08:39 pm UTC (link)
I have to admit, I have been confused as to why you liked the Watchmen. I was initially turned off by it, and then fell in love with the sheer.... craftsmanship.... of it somewhere around Chapter 9. The "All Along the Watchtower" chapter.

I'm a big fan of film noir, and I still find it, as you say, grimy. It is mainly the craftsmanship that I love, and I pretty much figured that was your take on it. *shrug*

"Human" characters seems to be something that escapes a lot of people, both artist and experiencer alike. Artists seem to go overboard, and in attempting to show a character that experiences fear or doubt, will make them a sniveling wreck. Viewers, readers, players, on the other hand, like their archetypes and tend to get turned off when people don't fit the mold. So it seems, anyways.

and the experiencer will tend to expect archetypes, in my experience.

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[info]vitruvian23
2009-03-10 09:46 pm UTC (link)
The one place where the movie (and the book) comes close to a moment of true redemption is the conversation on Mars, where Dr. Manhattan is convinced again of the importance and meaning of human life as a 'thermodynamic' miracle. One thing that I felt was keenly missed in the adaptation was Silk Spectre's rejoinder to Osterman's musing that her existence was a sort of miracle by virtue of the extreme odds against it, by noting that if that was true, the same could be said of *any* human life. Of course, by the same token Osterman should realize that despite all his power, he really isn't much like God and will probably fail miserably at attempting to create his own life forms somewhere else in the universe.

Of course, neither movie nor book has anyone point out to Osterman that his observation about there being no difference between live and dead bodies was a load of hooey even in purely materialistic terms (after all, there's a difference between watch that's running and one that's wound down), but most especially from his own perspective. How can he reduce human existence to atoms and molecules, when he knows from personal experience that there's something nonphysical that can persist when all the constituent particles are disintegrated and, in his case at least, assume mastery over the world of matter and reconstruct the body? If Dr. Manhattan himself wouldn't be evidence for something at least close to the religious doctrine of the immaterial soul, I don't know what would be...

As to your other criticisms, I must confess that I continued to find Rorschach a sympathetic character, despite his rather glaring flaws (and just about all of his violence in the film, barring his reprehensible interrogation methods, is in retribution or self-defense to the violence of others). I also didn't find Nite-Owl and Silk Spectre's pairing *too* tawdry since it appears that they continue their relationship and may indeed be on the path to marriage after the climax of the movie, with or without costumes, a denouement that may be morally flawed to many, but is at least better than a glorification of one-night stands or a Bondian relegation of past partners to brutal deaths.

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The man who would not quit
[info]johncwright
2009-03-11 02:12 pm UTC (link)
I also find Rorschach a sympathetic character. I think he is the best character in the film: the man who would not quit. Who does not want to see a child-rapist/murderer get a meat cleaver repeated slammed through his skull?

Rorschach is one of the things I put in my 'the good' column.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]the_entity, 2009-03-11 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oscillon, 2009-03-11 09:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-11 09:34 pm UTC
un-de-dsensitizing - [info]bear545, 2009-03-11 09:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-03-11 10:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2009-03-13 03:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-03-13 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]noahdoyle, 2009-03-13 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_entity, 2009-03-11 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bear545, 2009-03-12 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_entity, 2009-03-18 04:49 pm UTC

[info]guest_informant
2009-03-10 10:08 pm UTC (link)
> In fact, my first story I ever had printed was in a college newspaper, and it was the tale of Perseus, as an old man, living with his memories, called upon one last time to fight evil, long after he has lost the heart and thews for the deed.

John Barth used the same premise in his Perseid novella (part two of the Chimera fix-up). Somehow Perseus seems especially attractive in this context, the father of all retired superheroes.

(Reply to this)


[info]axiem
2009-03-10 10:27 pm UTC (link)
I found myself enjoying the comic, but not thinking it to be the masterpiece that many seem to consider it. I do like characters with humanity and flaws, be they heroes or villains, and I liked that. I also, to a large extent, enjoyed the world Moore had created, historically speaking. Delving into why people would get dressed up and go fight crime and what effect that really would have on those people and society...I thought that was good.

I also have to give Ozy credit. I absolutely loved the point where he explains his plan, and the "heroes" are about to stop it, and Ozy just goes "Do you really think I'm that stupid? I already implemented it."

However, Nixon being president that long just didn't grab me as at all realistic. The Cold War paranoia never made sense to me (being as I didn't live through it except as a baby). There was something about the comic I guess I just didn't get.

And then as for Ozy's plan...sacrifice a million to bring peace to the rest of the world? I didn't like it, because I don't believe it could work. Sooner or later, someone would wonder why there hasn't been a second squid. Sooner or later, there's going to be another national offense. The idea of a warless world just seems so utterly laughable to me that any plan in an attempt to achieve it just seems ridiculous. The scenes of the Russians coming in to help at the end just didn't work for me. Had Moore forgotten about the philosophical differences at the underpinnings of communism and capitalism? Or had he not realized them to begin with?

The movie's version, I felt, made more sense. But, as a reviewer pointed out, it made it explicitly American in nature--which could be enough to, say, annoy some of the other countries. Certainly not a loving peace. Also, eventually someone's going to figure out that Dr. Manhattan isn't really watching, and then everything's going to fall back down again.

People speak of the "moral ambiguity" of the ending. I do not see a moral ambiguity. Just a moral void: they are willing to let people die to achieve a fleeting peace.

Perhaps my living in an age of terrorism affects me; 9/11 was when I was in high school. In the years since, in the world I have seen people that will never know peace in my lifetime, and wars that will not stop just because some hippie thinks that "a new enemy" will unite us. There have been plenty of new enemies, and plenty of non-united unitings. We are fallen beings, and our inability to have true world peace is a symptom of that.

So the comic (and movie) strikes me as a period and mindset, and one which the intervening years have demonstrated false and ludicrous.

Yet, as a piece of literature, I have to give Moore props for his attempt to stretch the bounds of comics, and to try and produce human characters. I only wish his premise (not the superhero part) was not so laughable.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Familiar with neither the comics nor the movie
[info]deiseach
2009-03-11 04:53 am UTC (link)
But from odd references here and there, and one site which lavished attention in loving detail to the whole comic series, I think that Moore probably was making the same kind of point you raised, Axiem:

"And then as for Ozy's plan...sacrifice a million to bring peace to the rest of the world? I didn't like it, because I don't believe it could work. Sooner or later, someone would wonder why there hasn't been a second squid. Sooner or later, there's going to be another national offense. The idea of a warless world just seems so utterly laughable to me that any plan in an attempt to achieve it just seems ridiculous."

For the moment, in the aftermath of the tragedy, people are working together and putting aside all differences in the face of a common humanity (as an aside, I wonder if he had in mind the experience of the British during the Blitz? Indeed, for some political commentators in 80s England, there was a sort of nostalgic glow of rapture about it, and very nearly a wish that something like that could happen again, because it was so wonderful when everyone pulled together and the whole nation was united and nobody complained about privations and shortages and suffering... the Finest Hour mentality).

But it won't last, as you say. Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan either don't yet realise, or even worse, have reconciled themselves to the fact that they're going to have to pull another stunt like that again. It's even worse if you look at it like that; the first million killed were only the start of the victims. As soon as the shock wears off, and the divisions start arising again, and the doubters start voicing concerns about where are the invading space aliens now?

Then another massacre. And another. How many will they engage in? How many humans will be killed in the name of keeping humanity alive? A nuclear armageddon may be the more immediately terrifying spectre of mass destruction, but Ozymandias and Manhattan may end up chalking up a comparable death toll in a long, slow process.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

false and ludicrous - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-11 02:18 pm UTC
Re: false and ludicrous - [info]m_francis, 2009-03-11 07:03 pm UTC
Re: false and ludicrous - [info]mentalguy, 2009-03-11 10:55 pm UTC

[info]kitiara
2009-03-10 11:24 pm UTC (link)
Even when a high rise tenement is saved from a fire, no one expresses thanks to the superheroes.

I watched this movie last night and wondered whether anyone involved with the original plotline ever had experience in law enforcement. Sadly, in the nearly 3 years I've been doing it, I have learned that there are very few truly innocent victims who do not in some way contribute to their victimhood. They exist - they are just vastly outnumbered. And sometimes it's hard to do such a thankless job day in and day out, a job where everyone seems to know how to do it better than you do.

Consider this article in our local paper. An officer stopped to check to see if a homeless man was alive or dead on a night when temperatures were below zero. He then discovered the man had two outstanding felony warrants. While the officer was attempting to effect the arrest, the homeless man fired two rounds at the officer and his backup (he only fired two because his gun jammed on the third round), after which the officers returned fire, killing him. For months the news has been full of articles vilifying the officers for killing a poor innocent mentally ill homeless man.

Yesterday they completed the inquest and found it to be a justified use of force in self defense, and what is the first comment below the article? About what a travesty it is that they shot the man who shot at them eight times. There was a worse comment there that the newspaper deleted, calling eight rounds to the chest of a man who tried to kill them "excessive force" and labeling the officers as murderers.

I know those officers, they're good men. Young, under 30, with families. They're good men whom I know are not corrupt, whom I know spent Christmas agonizing over the fact that they'd (a) nearly died and (b) been forced to take another human life. And this is what little thanks they get from the citizens they serve.

It amazes me there are any good officers left who feel like serving such ungrateful and critical people. I don't even think most officers care about being thanked - it's just their job. They just don't want to be second-guessed and called murderers when they killed someone who tried to kill them first. I don't think that's too much to ask. If I was in this to "help people" I know I wouldn't have lasted a year. But it does make me a lot more sympathetic to Rorshach's point of view, that it's hard to think of society as worth saving, some days.

Fortunately I also know there are a lot of good people out there. They're just not as outspoken, and their compliments do not have the same sting and power as the criticisms.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fpb
2009-03-11 10:09 am UTC (link)
Ironically, Moore himself gave an excellent account of the trials and tribulations of law enforcers in his Top Ten, a story of superheroes as cops in a city full of superheroes. It received enthusiastic mail from a number of real-life policemen, although some features were sloppy, because the elements you talk about were so well done. One cop wrote in praise of a story featuring "cops caught up in a complete waste of time" that it gave a real sense of the pointlessness and waste and public stupidity they were so often caught up in. Of course, Top Ten was the product of a far more mature Moore, and of course, even so, it some really questionable elements. (Read it to the very last page and you will understand what I mean.) But I think you might like a look.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]arhyalon, 2009-03-11 12:11 pm UTC

[info]westmarked
2009-03-11 12:14 am UTC (link)
I felt this review was a great capture Watchmen as a whole. Key quote: "Subversive, cynical and nihilistic, Watchmen paints a universe in which Heath Ledger's Joker from last year's cinematic The Dark Knight would feel right at home--in fact, he might just find it a world in which there was nothing for him to do."

I don't think I need to see the movie version.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-06 11:31 am UTC (link)
You said: "
I don't think I need to see the movie version."

Did you read the original comic? If so, why on earth are you using that review as a guide? Look, if you haven't read the comic, you need to be saying "
I don't think I need to see the movie version nor the comic."

I watched the movie version and it has exactly the same tone as the comic. The reviewer has a problem with the original work AND, by extension, the film.

Veidt's point is that morality is NOT black and white and that people who see morality as such are not acting realistically; but everyone is having problems.

Also Alan Moore is cynical.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]westmarked, 2009-04-06 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 07:22 am UTC
Watchmen Opening Title Sequence
[info]mmcshrry
2009-03-11 03:21 am UTC (link)
http://www.thinkhero.com/2009/03/07/watchmen-movie-opening-title-sequence/

(Reply to this)


[info]robert_mitchell
2009-03-11 03:34 am UTC (link)
Just saw it. A few thoughts. Ozymandias gets rid of the good Dr. to affect his plan to save the world from the nuclear war caused by the good Dr. leaving. This coupled with the Euro-trash feel of the actor removed the power of the "paradox". The adding of CGI was counterproductive when used to give Dr. Manhattan field effect powers(force fields) that he didn't posses in the comic. If he can make a dome, he can stop All the bombs, yes? You could tell that they were pushing the "Nixon is Fascist" storyline, but nothing showed anything close to that. I think it's because anything they could have shown would have brought to mind the Soviet Union, and how evil it was for real.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]johncwright
2009-03-11 02:26 pm UTC (link)
"You could tell that they were pushing the "Nixon is Fascist" storyline"

Not sure about that. I was watching and waiting for some slam against Nixon, who is for the Liberals their Sauron, and instead I saw the character only doing what any president in his situation would do, at least in terms of the looming threat from the Soviets. If this movie were trying to make the case that the arms race or the nuclear standoff were the fault of the Americans, it did a poor job of it.

Now, the Comedian assassinating JFK--maybe that pushes a 'Nixon as fascist' story line, but maybe not.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]noahdoyle, 2009-03-11 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]simonbob, 2009-03-11 03:04 pm UTC

[info]noahdoyle
2009-03-11 05:57 am UTC (link)
Horrible, horrible, horrible movie. One of the few that I'm sorry I didn't walk out of - and I should have.

The worst of the violence was completely pointless, and when the audience applauded at a man shrieking in agony as his face was melted by cooking grease, I realized that I didn't want to be there anymore; but I didn't have the courage to get up and walk out.

From the point of view of someone who hadn't read the comic, the movie was more than a little incoherent. Who are these people? Where did they come from? Why should I care one whit about them? Are they supernatural, or highly trained, or what? They appear of out nowhere, lead extremely ugly lives full of idiotic dialogue ('What happened to the American Dream?' 'It came true!'), and then millions of people are murdered, The Atomic Penis goes away after one more murder (of a psychopath-protagonist we're supposed to have some sort of sympathy for, perhaps), and we're left with...nothing.

I was advised that I should have read the comic before-hand. At least Lynch's Dune only made me memorize one sheet of names and facts.

(Yes, I'd read Dune, and admit that for someone who hadn't, the movie would have been hard to follow. Fellowship of the Ring made sense to people who hadn't read the book.)

No matter how good the cinematography, this is one of the worst movies I've ever seen - whatever technical brilliance that might be there makes the utter moral ugliness all the more clear.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]crumjd
2009-03-11 03:55 pm UTC (link)
> From the point of view of someone who hadn't read the comic, the movie was
> more than a little incoherent. Who are these people? Where did they come
> from? Why should I care one whit about them? Are they supernatural, or
> highly trained, or what? They appear of out nowhere, lead extremely ugly
> lives full of idiotic dialogue ('What happened to the American Dream?' 'It
> came true!'), and then millions of people are murdered, The Atomic Penis
> goes away after one more murder (of a psychopath-protagonist we're
> supposed to have some sort of sympathy for, perhaps), and we're left
> with...nothing.

I read the comic right before watching the movie so I would understand the movie better. And I've seen your comment a number of times in reviews. Let me answer: the comic is also more than a little incoherent. We don't know. We're not sure. Yeah probably just highly trained (but they fight against better odds in the comic). Yeah that's about what they do. Check and check!

The comic be it, good or bad, is very focused on telling the story of a tragedy. It's sort of like King Lear that way. Why did the man decide to give up his kingdom, tick off his only worthwhile heir, alienate and exile his allies, and then ramble around the country with a bunch of knights? Heck if we know, but it sure didn't work out for him!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]princejvstin
2009-03-11 09:39 am UTC (link)
Some reviewers have mocked the musical sound track. I find no fault in it...

I don't *mock* it, I just thought it showed a lack of subtlety and distracted me from the movie itself at key points. The Phillip Glass piece was one of the few counterexamples (and a case where the music meshed well and didn't try to overwhelm what was happening).
Or maybe its because that awful sex scene between Nite Owl and Silk Spectre was paired with Halleujah blaring that permanently crystallized my dislike of the soundtrack as a whole. (transference of one bad taste onto another)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]simonbob
2009-03-11 03:06 pm UTC (link)
Snyder didn't even have the courtesy to get someone decent to cover Hallelujiah. I'm a fan of Cohen's stuff, but he ought to stick to Suzanne and So Long, Marianne.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]the_entity, 2009-03-11 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-06 11:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-04-06 02:05 pm UTC
Re - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 05:51 am UTC

[info]fpb
2009-03-11 10:01 am UTC (link)
Glad that you eventually got to agree on the original Watchmen. Of course I will never bother with the movie, since I have thought from the beginning that the original story was a gross mistake in conception and the first real stinker I had ever seen from Moore. I mean, V for Vendetta is politically idiotic, not to mention full of cliches, but it has an inner integrity this lacks. Deconstructing superheroes is not worth doing, and in so far as it is worth doing at all, it has been done much better by Jack Kirby in 2001 no.6, as part of a mature and profound look at fundamental issues of human life. It is an adolescent itch, like painting a mustache on the Monna Lisa, and it has the same feature of partial and immature cleverness. Of course, if the Monna Lisa had mustache, she would be both ugly and hilarious, but the fact is that she would not be what she is. Nothing is added to our understanding of beauty by detracting beauty from what is beautiful; this may be a necessary stage of growth as the teen-ager asserts his individuality by questioning the things that were taught to him, but it shows no maturity, no real understanding, and no steadiness of soul. It is as if the first discovery that something may be corrupt, something may be ugly, something may be questionable, were so terrifying that the whole world is disfigured in one's eyes. WATCHMEN is a spotty adolescent production. And what honked me off at the time was the fraud at the back of it. If it had been the work of an independent publisher like Dave Sim, taking his risks for his vision and his lumps from people who disagreed with him (like yours truly, who never forgave his defamatory account of the Church), it would have an integrity that would command respect even as you are screaming in the author's face that it is wrong. But Moore was never any good as an independent publisher; he failed repeatedly. WATCHMEN was rebellion by permission of Head Office - an attitude I despise. It was published by the very company who owned the rights to the Charlton heroes, not to mention Superman and Batman and the rest. And what a lot of noise they made about it! It was the most heavily advertised series in, well, I can't remember another one so heavily advertised before. It was not only capitalism in action, but big business in action, which of course is only multiplied by the movie. Now this is not entirely bad: it is true and meritorious that DC under Dick Giordano was a place for creativity, where many good people did many good things - or even things that seemed good at the time. But in this case, you had not only the creativity as such, but the deliberate, commercial, aggressive promotion of the superstar artist creating the next step in comics as an artform. GEt in on the ground floor! Well, at that point, someone had to scream out loud that this particular emperor had as much clothing as Dr Manhattan. It fell to me and a few others, and to this day I am convinced that I was right the first time.

Ironically, Moore himself went on to produce some of the finest straight superhero stories ever written. His fourteen issues of WildC.A.T.s and most of the accessory material, are the finest superhero run since the early days of Claremont and Byrne's X-Men, and one would have to go back to Kirby and Steve Gerber to find anything comparable before. (I except the sex-based Voodoo mini-series; Moore about sex is nearly always terrible.) His Youngblood, tragically limited to three stories, showed similar promise. His Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is the best Superman story ever made, quite likely the best that will ever be made. He did not remove the magic from superheroes, even for himself; he still knew, better than anyone else, where to find it; but tragically, he received the loudest praise - with plenty of help from DC's hard-sell promotion - just for the work that was least valuable and least really significant. And I would argue that it has since encouraged him in his worst habits and views, especially his increasingly relativistic post-modernism.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]johncwright
2009-03-11 02:30 pm UTC (link)
"It is an adolescent itch, like painting a mustache on the Monna Lisa, and it has the same feature of partial and immature cleverness. Of course, if the Monna Lisa had mustache, she would be both ugly and hilarious, but the fact is that she would not be what she is. Nothing is added to our understanding of beauty by detracting beauty from what is beautiful"

Well said.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]mentalguy, 2009-03-11 03:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2009-03-11 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-11 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mentalguy, 2009-03-11 05:22 pm UTC
Willingham - [info]jjbrannon, 2009-03-13 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-03-14 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-03-14 02:17 am UTC
Seconded - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-16 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrmandias, 2009-03-11 07:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrmandias, 2009-03-11 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xander25, 2009-03-14 12:59 am UTC

[info]arhyalon
2009-03-11 12:15 pm UTC (link)
I had this same experience...of suddenly realizing that I did not like Watchmen...some months ago. It was Lost Girls that did it, really...I looked back and suddenly realized that Watchmen was against everything I stood for.

I decided not to see the movie.

Odd, though, as just a few years ago, I would have thought a 'true-to-the-material Watchman movie was the greatest thing.

(Reply to this)


[info]simonbob
2009-03-11 03:40 pm UTC (link)
It bothered me that they put a remarkably different spin on the Comedian being Laurie's father. In the book, the closing chapter (as well as some of the supplemental material) makes it clear that, although he tried to rape Sally Jupiter, she still found feelings for him. Granted, it was some sort of crazy Stockholm-syndrome victim fashion, which is probably as immature and tasteless as love could get -- but it was still out of love, which was a redemptive point for both Sally and Laurie.

In the movie, Sally reacted by laughing and taking off to get another drink. That's some good work exploring the human psyche there, Hollywood!

You touched on it repeatedly in your observations: Watchmen the movie is really just a movie. It had none of the narrative power of the book, from the woven layout of the Watchmaker chapter to the picture-perfect parallelism of Fearful Symmetry. They had to tack on extra gore and a whole fight sequence to keep the audience's eye while altering, removing, and adding whole lines of dialogue to maintain pace and get the point across to the lower of the common denominators. I particularly cringed at how Rorschach's understated criticism of Dreiberg near the opening was extended into a full-blown rant. Ironically, or maybe not, they cut out one of Veidt's lines that would've summarized how I felt about the way the audience was being manipulated: "all the nations are unified and pacified."

'Course, I'm still young and cynical. Edward Blake is no role model, but he showed up at a time in my life when I'd realized that trying to care about everything was paralyzing me, and that prioritizing my empathy was an acceptable alternative. It was useful in a way to have an example of just how far amorality could go as a scale to set myself against.

(Reply to this)


[info]crumjd
2009-03-11 04:43 pm UTC (link)
I liked it well enough. Mostly, I felt an American filmmaker actually being faithful to his source material was an achievement which should be sung throughout the ages.

Some things that were "meh" in the comic (Doc's giant mars glass clock thing) looked really cool on screen. Some things that reviewers of the comic practically wrote poems over (the embedded pirate comic, the lives of the secondary characters) got cut and I didn't notice any crying - not even in critical reviews by comic book fans.

It *is* a tragedy. The story has a moral; it's just not a nice one: it is that humans are violent and motivated by fear. It doesn't extort you to any particular action because no action can cure that. The worlds smartest man simply sets up a bigger fear off stage to keep the masses passive. It's a conclusion only Machiavelli could love. But if you expect that going in and harbor some cynicism in your own heart it doesn't have to ruin the story.

The compound fractures were nasty and they were the only thing I wish I could remove. Zack Snyder had to put a signature on it somehow, I guess.

Silk Specter II was flat. I'm not sure if the actress did a poor job or if the character is simply flat. She is quite passive throughout the original. I thought the sex scene was sexy and more realistic then the usual fair. Yeah, it's a shame modern society doesn't consider unmarried sex bad but that's kind of a bigger issue isn't it?

Doctor Manhattan is the only one who really get's shorted. In the comic he sees the future *exactly as it will happen*. There's no possible future, or likely future, or probable future. He simply knows what's coming next because he already lives there. Thus, in the comic, he is *amazingly human* given the circumstances rather then *becoming inhuman* because of his power. The gap between him an humanity isn't _power_ it's an unbridgeable conviction regarding his own _powerlessness_ that no ordinary human can possibly internalize.

Night Owl has ED because he feels powerless and is terrified of nuclear war. In another move he'd be a profoundly sympathetic character, and I *do* feel for the man. I lived through the 80s. These kids and their global warming; they don't know anything about looming Armageddon.

But Night Owl and Doc show my real problem the movie. It's got too much going on. You could make a whole movie, heck a whole series about any one of the sub threads. A drunken stage mother. Sure, good plot! How a man deals with his own fear? Great flick! Determinism vrs free will? The philosophers will write about it for ages. But put it all in the same show (plus Rorschach) and even if you're broadly brushing out big themes it feels like you didn't really *say* anything.

It's hard to get around that failing.

(Reply to this)

Who Watches the Watchmen? Not Me
[info]niallmor
2009-03-13 03:33 am UTC (link)
I wanted to read the original graphic novel because I created some superhero characters of my own, and I was trying to get a feel for the kinds of superhero stories that are popular and influential on today's market. I just finished reading the original graphic novel today and pretty much HATED IT. It was actually my second attempt because the first time through I found it unbearably bleak and depressing. I promise, if I'm ever able to do anything with my characters, they will be "old school" superheroes--seeking to do that which is good and right and do it bravely.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Who Watches the Watchmen? Not Me
[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-06 11:36 am UTC (link)
So I take it you don't like depressing stories.

I liked Dan and Laurie, though. When they realize they like being heroes, they become people who seek to do right and good and do it bravely.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Who Watches the Watchmen? Not Me - [info]johncwright, 2009-04-06 02:10 pm UTC
Re: Who Watches the Watchmen? Not Me - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 07:31 am UTC

[info]darkamber
2009-03-13 07:03 am UTC (link)
"The dread of global thermonuclear destruction no longer hangs over our political landscape; and, even if it did, as an adult I would not blame the Americans for the threat. The threat came from the Soviets."

What was your view in the 70-ties and 80-ties?
I was 13 in 1979. I remember I worried sometimes about nuclear war and the end of the world; sometimes it gave me nightmares. I'm a Norwegian, and I thought both the Americans and the Russians (the governments) were crazy.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]johncwright
2009-03-13 02:57 pm UTC (link)
"What was your view in the 70-ties and 80-ties?"

In the 70's I was too young to be interested in politics.

In the 80's, my opinion followed those of Robert Heinlein, who was a strong influence over my youth. I thought, as Patrick Henry before me, that one should prefer death to slavery. The psychology of those who yearn for slavery and self-destruction was baffling to me. I understand it better now, now that I believe in Hell.

My opinion of the Soviets was in line with Ayn Rand, who regarded them as illegitimate; merely gangsters, mere ignorant thugs, addicted to violence, whose avowed purpose was the destruction of human liberty. I had not heard about the Ukrainian famine, the gulags, and so on.

I did not at the time realize the true inhumanity and evil of the Soviets: I still gave them credit for being human beings.

I certainly did not think the Americans were "crazy" to oppose these mass-murderers. Indeed, I thought the American posture was cowardly and understated. At the time I did not understand that Reagan was pursuing a wise and effective policy of cutting off Western aid to the East and allowing the Soviet 'economy' (I use the word loosely) to implode.

The true degree of Western involvement in supporting, supplying, encouraging and aiding and abetting our avowed mortal enemies was unknown to me. The degree of European ingratitude for American salvation from the enemy was unknown to me. The callousness of Western intellectuals, who look at tens of millions of corpses piled up by world communism without batting an eyelash was unknown to me: I would not have believed such perfect hypocrisy and corruption of the intellect was possible had I known of it.

So, to sum up, at the time I was too innocent to realize that the evil of socialism was as bad as, in hindsight, it turned out to have been, and I grossly underestimated the heroic stature of Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, and Pope John-Paul II, who opposed the Soviets.

I regret that I listened even with half an ear to the calumnies heaped upon these great figures, and which still, despite the verdict of history, continues to be heaped on them.

The clearest statement of Reagan's true stature in history I have read recently was REAGAN'S WAR by Peter Schweizer. Highly recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Reagans-War-Struggle-Triumph-Communism/dp/0385504713

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]botticelli_s, 2009-03-13 04:33 pm UTC
Cold War - [info]darkamber, 2009-03-13 04:42 pm UTC
Re: Cold War - [info]darkamber, 2009-03-13 05:41 pm UTC
Re: Cold War - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-13 08:40 pm UTC
Re: Cold War - [info]darkamber, 2009-03-13 09:24 pm UTC
Re: Cold War - [info]xander25, 2009-03-14 12:29 am UTC
ETA - [info]darkamber, 2009-03-14 05:55 am UTC
Re: ETA - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-16 06:22 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: ETA - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-21 03:35 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]fpb, 2009-03-21 04:43 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-21 08:13 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]fpb, 2009-03-21 04:43 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-21 07:35 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]fpb, 2009-03-21 08:13 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-21 08:45 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]fpb, 2009-03-21 08:53 pm UTC
Re: ETA - [info]johncwright, 2009-03-22 05:03 am UTC
Re: Cold War - [info]axiem, 2009-03-13 10:58 pm UTC
Re: Cold War - [info]fpb, 2009-03-21 09:38 am UTC
REAGAN'S WAR by Peter Schweizer - [info]darkamber, 2009-03-13 04:59 pm UTC
More than the sum of its parts, I think not
[info]xander25
2009-03-14 12:57 am UTC (link)
The funny thing is, if you break it down to parts, it's actually somewhat enjoyable.

Consider for a moment the music (which I don't understand the complaints). There is a scene where one of the actors complains that nothing is funny anymore. The response, "What do you expect, the comedian is dead." Cue music, cut to funeral scene. I thought this was very well done, and I found moving. Keep in mind, that for me, mixed in with this is the idea of service members attending another's funeral, not because they were necessarily friends or agreed with his views, but because he was a brother. Perhaps, I am reading too much into it.

Or another one I liked was on Mars, when Dr. Manhattan recognizes life as being more than the sum of its parts. To be fair, I liked this scene because I have been thinking about something similar (in regards to nature and evolution) in my ruminations. I found his conclusion awe-inspiring, but that's just me. Though, what led up to it was absurd. The idea that human life can be reduced to atoms is ridiculous. All of our religion, art, philosophy, literature, and even science is meaningless and amounts to a big joke. Absurd, even by atheist standards. Alan Moore should read Ayn Rand.

Of course, by the end, we find it was really all pointless. No effort made by our heroes works out to good effect, all for the express reason of telling us not to worship heroes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: More than the sum of its parts, I think not
[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-06 11:34 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure if it's so much don't worship heroes as "don't see the world in black and white" - morality is more complex. It's that the comic form of superheroes is deceptive in their takes on morality

I find Laurie and Dan to be upstanding people, even if they have little flaws. I sympathize with the lovebirds. I am mixed on Rorschach and Manhattan. I don't sympathize with the Comedian at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: More than the sum of its parts, I think not - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 07:45 am UTC
What violence?
[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-06 11:33 am UTC (link)
I think both the film and the novel have about the same violence.

In my head I compared the Knot-Top scene in the book to the one in the film. Both feature gangsters getting bloodied and Laurie and Dan shocked at the end.

However the breakout scene did seem a bit more action-packed and somewhat "positive" in tone, prolly as a concession to action fans.

The Veidt-Dreiberg showdown seemed a bit more action-oriented too.

But remember the ending of the GN where all the people in New York die bloody deaths; it's cleaner in the Snyder film.

(Reply to this)


[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-06 11:40 am UTC (link)
Also, looking at the "Decent Films" reviewer Greydanus's post, he said: "The graphic novel has a horror-stricken young Rorschach, snapping after making a grisly discovery, chain a human monster inside his apartment, splash kerosene around, drop a match, and walk away, leaving him to burn to death offscreen. In the movie, after chaining him up, Rorschach splits his skull with a meat cleaver, then continues to whack at the skull again and again, all in closeup."

Dude, that scene was less violent. In the original the guy was put in a torture situation where he had to saw through his arm or get burned up; he burned. In this version Rorschach puts him out of his misery rather quickly; he's dead in the first blow. The film was kinder to Gerald Grice.

Then again the reviewer thinks the comic is too depressing, so keep that in mind.

(Reply to this)

Sam Hamm
[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-07 06:19 am UTC (link)
BTW have you seen the Sam Hamm draft script? Sam Hamm wrote a Watchmen script in 1989, and you can view it here: http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/wtchmn.txt

(Reply to this)


[info]vincentomoh
2009-04-07 07:50 am UTC (link)
You said: "But then Rorschach is killed by God Almighty, in the form of Dr. Manhattan, rather than by Ozymandias who just got done killing the Comedian and trapping Rorschach for the express purpose of hiding his master-crime; and therefore Ozzy has a motive to stop Rorschach, but Doc Manhattan does not really."

Manhattan does have a motive: on Mars he found that life is a miracle and he realized that it ought to be protected. Dan and Laurie do so too.

But here's another; the other characters opposed Rorschach leaving, and Veidt himself felt that Rorschach would never make it anyway. How on earth was Rorschach supposed to leave? I don't think he is able to access Archie. In a way Manhattan was putting Rorschach out of his misery; I don't think he would have found a good end in a vain attempt to travel back to the US.

Also there is kind of a contradiction in Rorschach's views; in a document he wrote (I forget which) he praised Harry Truman for bombing Japan to save everyone else, and yet he criticizes Adrian Veidt for killing New Yorkers to save the world.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]johncwright
2009-04-07 02:17 pm UTC (link)
"Also there is kind of a contradiction in Rorschach's views; in a document he wrote (I forget which) he praised Harry Truman for bombing Japan to save everyone else, and yet he criticizes Adrian Veidt for killing New Yorkers to save the world."

Not to start an argument, but if you cannot distinguish between 1. a legitimate act of war after a declaration of war, carried out by a democratically elected government against a ruthless and fanatic military dictatorship, between that and 2. an act of brutal and pointless mass murder carried out against your own people, people who loved and trusted you, you are incapable of even simple moral judgment.

I assume Alan Moore cannot make simple moral judgments, since it is clear he meant his WATCHMEN to be ambiguous -- but he selected a case where there really is no moral ambiguity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 03:56 pm UTC
Fiat justitia ruat caelum - [info]johncwright, 2009-04-07 05:03 pm UTC
Re: Fiat justitia ruat caelum - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 06:42 pm UTC
Re: Fiat justitia ruat caelum - [info]johncwright, 2009-04-07 07:31 pm UTC
Re: Fiat justitia ruat caelum - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-08 12:22 am UTC
Re: Fiat justitia ruat caelum - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-08 01:17 am UTC
Re: Fiat justitia ruat caelum - [info]vincentomoh, 2009-04-07 07:27 pm UTC

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