John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,

C.S. Lewis, H.G. Wells and Arthur C. Clarke

SPOILERS BELOW. I discuss the meaning of several books by C.S. Lewis, Arthur C. Clarke and H.G. Wells, and the books cannot be discussed without a discussion of their surprise endings. You Have Been Warned.

I am reading (but have not finished) a book by Doris T. Myers called C.S. LEWIS IN CONTEXT, where the authoress advances the argument that C.S. Lewis, in his fiction writing, addressed a central preoccupation of the European intelligentsia after the culture-wide disillusionment and loss of spiritual strength ushered in by the decimation of the Great War (World War I). That preoccupation was with language and its relation to reality. The pre-War consensus was that words had meaning, and were shaped by the ideals and ideas which these words embodied: a word was an incarnation of a real idea. The post-War consensus was that words were a side-effect of mechanical actions in the nervous system, having no meaning in and of themselves: the modernists idea is that there are no ideas, only Madison Avenue manipulations of linguistic machinery to attempt to influence your thinking machinery.

While I side with Aristotle in most things, when it comes to language, I am a Platonist. If the truths discovered by mathematics are not objective in every sense of the word—things whose reality depends not on the observer but on itself for its truth—then with word “truth” has no reality. And, if the word “truth” has no reality, than neither can the statement “the word ‘truth’ has no reality’ have any reality.

The conclusions and opinions of C.S. Lewis in these matters can be discerned in his nonfiction essay, THE ABOLITION OF MAN, and also in his fictionalization of that essay, THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH; and an acute reader will notice the way language is used in PRELENDRA and OUT FROM THE SILENT PLANET, in the scenes of the temptation of the Green Lady of Venus, or the deposition of Weston by the Eldil, with accompanying translation from English into the True Speech.

Doris T. Myers, also advances the proposition that Lewis represents a serious contribution to the science fiction field, augmenting mere adventure stories into tales with a serious moral point and philosophical reflection.

Meyers gives short shrift to the notion that C.S. Lewis cannot be considered a ‘real’ science fiction writer because his science was not up to the Jules Verne standard of nuts-and-bolts accuracy. Lewis’s Space Trilogy contained scientific errors not any more or less glaring than those typical for science fiction writers. I notice that H.G. Wells, for example, places an atmosphere on the moon. This is not less scientific than Lewis putting canals on Mars, which, I notice, Robert Heinlein does as well. The Cavorite of Wells is not one iota less pure Handwavium than the mysterious property of solar rays used by Weston to propel his space-vessel, or the unexplained crystal that powers the Time Traveler’s time machine. Even the best science fiction writers simply invent whatever balonium is needed to move the plot. (If you need me to flood the warp core with tachyon particles in order to reverse the polarity, I will be down at the Church of All Worlds, groking my geriatric spice, talking with Diktor & Mycroft, cranched under my cranching wire, and reading up on Psychohistory and Robopsychology.)

C.S. Lewis himself was a champion of the idea that science fiction should be taken seriously: C.S. Lewis regarded it as regrettable that a book of ideas like Arthur C. Clarke’s CHILDHOOD’S END would be dismissed as juvenilia while modernistic books be feted. In a letter, Lewis says:

It is a strange comment on our age that such a book lies hid in a hideous paper-backed edition, wholly unnoticed by the cognoscenti, while any 'realistic' drivel about some neurotic in a London flat--something that needs no real invention at all, something that any educated man could write if he chose, may get seriously reviewed and mentioned in serious books - as if it really mattered. I wonder how long this tyranny will last? Twenty years ago I felt no doubt that I should live to see it all break up and great literature return: but here I am, losing teeth and hair, and still no break in the clouds. ~C.S. Lewis, Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis: Volume III, Letter to Joy Gresham, Dec 22, 1953
Of course, the admiration of the author of the Ransom Trilogy for the author of CHILDHOOD’S END will come as no surprise to those who recognize where these books stand in the Great Dialog of the Pen. Arthur C. Clarke’s novel was an answer and a rebuttal to OUT FROM THE SILENT PLANET and to THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH in the same way that C. S. Lewis’ novel was a rebuttal and an answer to FIRST MEN IN THE MOON by H.G. Wells.

Let me see if I can lend weight to the speculation that one book was meant to answer another. First I will discuss Wells and Lewis, and next Lewis and Clarke.

That Lewis is openly Christian in his world-view is something no one denies: but I would also like to add weight to the argument that CHILDHOOD’S END is not merely an anti-Christian book, but actually a heretical one. It espouses Gnosticism not quite as openly as VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS by David Lindsay, but the trace is unmistakable. (I speak of the book and not the author. I cannot imagine someone as openly atheistic as Clarke actually buying into Gnosticism literally, with its absurd hierarchy of angels and emanations: I speak only of a similarity of imaginations.)

Wells and Lewis:

The parallels between OUT FROM THE SILENT PLANET and H.G. Wells’ FIRST MEN IN THE MOON are pretty clear.

In FIRST MEN IN THE MOON, a scientist and a businessman, Cavor and Bedford fly to the moon in an antigravity sphere, and experience a strange euphoria while in space. They land, are captured, and Cavor is taken to be deposed by the Grand Lunar, the ruling intellect of the Moon, who hears his testimony of Man’s warlike ways with disbelief and horror. Cavor communicated by wireless to Earth, but the Lunars prevent him from revealing the secret of spaceflight before silencing his wireless set forever. Bedford returns to Earth, but a child playing in the sphere accidently shoots it out into space, never to be recovered, so no future contact or commerce between Earth and Space is possible. Earth is quarantined.

The Lunar beings are the ideal example of organization under a scientifically totalitarian state, with each insect-man born and bred to its task, which it performs with soulless efficiency, unable to desire or imagine rebellion or malingering, or is placed in opiate suspended animation until needed, having no individualism or friction with its neighbors. Both Cavor and Bedford express dismay at the idea that the White Man would descend upon the Moon as upon Asia and the Americas, and place the natives under colonial rule.

In OUT FROM THE SILENT PLANET, the two adventurers, the scientist called Weston and the businessman called Devine, are joined by a philologist, whom they kidnap. The sphere has artificially gravity rather than no gravity, and the space euphoria has a religious overtone: it is described as Deep Heaven, a place where the sun’s rays have healthy and benevolent effects normally cut by Earth’s atmosphere. They land, are not captured, and are taken to be deposed by the Ruling Intelligence of Mars, a disembodied being, no doubt an angel, named Malacandra, who hears his testimony of Man’s warlike ways with disbelief and horror, but hears the tale of the Incarnation of Christ with reverent wonder. The earthmen are commanded to return to Earth, and, once they land, a Martian weapon, or, rather, divine wrath, smites the space-travelling sphere and destroys it so no future contact or commerce between Earth and Space is possible. Earth is quarantined.

The Martian beings are unfallen creatures, who live without the competition or jealousy we take for granted, are an ideal example of Christian social teaching, brotherhood, and even hierarchy. C.S. Lewis uses the deposition scene as an opportunity to mock and show the weaknesses of the imperialistic race-drives which claim man should conquer heaven and earth alike, subjugating any alien beings we find. Not just colonialism, but the entire mind-set of the scientifically organized state, homo sapiens uber alles, is condemned.

There are other minor parallelisms: neither the Sorns of Malacandra nor the Selenites of the Moon have books, albeit both have advanced civilizations.

Likewise PERELENDRA has parallels to THE TIME MACHINE. C.S. Lewis, for one thing, copies H.G. Wells’ plot outline: the story is told as a flashback between the framing sequence of the visitor to the home of the Traveler (in Lewis, a space traveler, in Wells, a time traveler). In both, the Visitor hears the Traveler expound his theories. He returns later, and the Traveler emerges from his journey, and tells the Visitor his adventures over a meal. (As befits their themes, breakfast for Ransom, dinner for the Time Traveler.)

There are minor parallels: the Time Traveler has flower petals brought back from the far future, and Ransom the Space Traveler has flower petals brought back from Venus. Both go to a garden world, meeting folk who apparently have no goals beyond leisure and play. Both are caught in the rain when they first arrive, thought the Time Traveler lands in a chilling hail, whereas Ransom lands in a warm shower. Both try to protect their friends, Tinidril or Weena, and end up in an underground combat, either with Morlocks or with the Un-Man.

There are deliberate contrasts: the Time Traveler, having eaten nothing but fruit, is starved for steak, and also haggard, thin and sickly from his travails. Ransom has eaten the food of Venus, an Eden, and cannot tolerate the smell or thought of meat, and he looks so healthy, brimming with energy and verve, that he cannot believe the earthmen are not ill.

The theme of THE TIME MACHINE the destiny of man as brought about by blind evolution; the theme of PERELENDRA is the Fall of Man, the destiny as brought about by moral failure (on Earth) and success (on Venus). Both are eschatological novels. The Time Traveler sees the ultimate fate of man after he departs from the time of the Morlocks: a crablike animal on a tideless shore beneath a swollen red sun. Ransom, transported in a vision called The Great Dance, sees the ultimate destiny of man: the Fall will be corrected, and the end of the old earth will be merely the beginning, the first step, of ever greater glories: the Apocalypse of St. John is not the end of history, merely the end of mankind’s confinement to a cosmic sick bed, from which we will arise hale and singing.

A more complex set of parallels can be seen in the way the Time Traveler goes through various theories about the world he is seeing: at first he thinks the perfection of industrial society has rendered the Eloi weak and childlike by eliminating all threats from their environment, ergo eliminating all Darwinian pressure to maintain intelligence; then he thinks the survival of the fittest exaggerated the class distinctions, with Eloi descended from aristocrats and Morlocks from workingmen; then he realizes the Eloi are cattle for the tool-using Morlocks, which is, as a metaphor at least, something of a condemnation of how men use technology to control the environment, namely, that they cannot resist the temptation to use technology to control each other, as cattle.

Likewise, in three audiences with Tinidril the Green Lady, the issue of survival of the fittest is addressed when the ‘feeble’ peoples of Malacandra are discovered not to me merely a dying race due to their age. They do not fit into the neat Victorian scheme of evolution at all. She denounces the popular idea that whatever is newer is better.

In a next scene, the same class distinction found so distasteful to the Time Traveler appears when the Green Lady, who is the sovereign Queen of Venus, discovers that Ransom is not the Adam of Earth, was not sent by Eve, and ergo he is not equal to her in rank. Christians, who hold animals to be lesser beings and angels to be higher, admit of an innate hierarchy or order of beings in the cosmos.

In the final scene in PERELENDRA, the menace of technology is presented as controlled, so long as moral order obtains: when Tor, the King of Venus, whose face bears the imprint of Christ Himself, prophesied, or, rather, since is he sovereign, commands the fate of his world in times to come, one thing he mentions is commanding angelic powers to tear aside the clouds of Venus that his children might gaze in wonder at the stars. This is parallel to a passage in Milton which says that if Adam had not fallen, he and his children would have risen by degrees to great those happy beings who dwell among the fortunate islands of the stars. It is a vision of a command over nature which technology promises, but, for fallen men, the promise cannot be trusted, for we ourselves are the ancestors of the Morlocks.

Obviously Lewis’ main inspiration for his tale comes from Milton. It is interesting to note Miltonian details present in PRELENDRA but not in the Book of Genesis, such as the scene where Satan whispers at the ear of the sleeping Eve, or the Un-Man at the ear of the sleeping Green Lady. Lewis was composing his A PREFACE TO PARADISE LOST that same year. But the influence an inspiration from H.G. Wells is also present, unless all these parallels are merely coincidence.

I would also argue that it is well known that C.S. Lewis read H.G. Wells (whom he mentioned by name in OUT FROM THE SILENT PLANET). The science fiction field in those days consisted of H.G. Wells and Olaf Stapledon and Jules Verne, a very few hardback books, and a small grove of pulp magazines, of which only one or two published serious, thought-provoking work. Everyone in the field knew everyone else.

Lewis and Clarke:

It is not generally known that the great Arthur C. Clarke, one of the three titans of the golden age of science fiction, wrote a letter to C.S. Lewis criticizing his portrayal of space travel in his Ransom Trilogy, and trying to persuade the Inkling that space travel was sure to be beneficial and benevolent. This lead to a long standing correspondence between the two science fiction writers.

I submit that CHILDHOOD’S END is Clarke’s answer to Lewis even as the Space Trilogy is Lewis’s rebuttal to HG Wells.

It is no coincidence that, in OUT FROM THE SILENT PLANET, the angels destroy the space-travelling sphere of Weston, and pronounce a curse on attempts by man to leave the Earth and seek immortality; whereas in CHILDHOOD’S END it is the earth that is destroyed when mankind achieves disembodied psionic union with the Overmind, and immortality and godlike powers.

In PERELENDRA such attempts space travel turn out to be literally the work of devils (for the scientist Weston in SILENT PLANET is now shown to be possessed by a fallen angel); and in THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH the ‘Dark Eldil’ tempt man to seek immortality through technology, and copy the practices of Sulva, the barren moon where nearly all organic life has been wiped out, in preference to artificial cybernetic existence. Whereas in CHILDHOOD’S END the devils (batwings and barbed tails and all) are the good guys, midwives whose mission is to usher mankind through a difficult period of evolution into godlike psi-powers, and the promise of immortality through science is kept.

Those of you who are keeping track of modern manifestations of ancient and ever-living heresies will recognize the odor wafting from CHILDHOOD’S END. It is Gnosticism, almost without disguise.

In the Gnostic myth, the serpent in Eden was a hero attempting to return Adam and Eve to a primordial unity with the Pleroma, the godhead, and the God of the Bible is a mere imposter, a criminal who tried to enslave them in the pleasant trap called Eden. In Gnosticism, as in the movies THE MATRIX or DARK CITY, the world around us is an illusion, a deception, and when we escape the deception, we shall become as gods, knowing good and evil, and shall live forever. In CHILDHOOD’S END, the Overlords (winged devils) usher mankind gently into extinction so that the evolved children of men (let us call them Slans) the psychic supermen, the homo superior, will replace them. The Slans reject all human institutions, evolve beyond human comprehension, pull the moon out of orbit and, for no particular reason, destroy the Earth. Then they all fly off to join in oneness with a space being Clarke calls the Overmind, or, for those of you who recognize the older name, the Pleroma.

In Christian eschatology, the old heaven and earth is destroyed, but replaced by a new heaven and earth, shining and unstained, and the righteous are raised in glorified bodies. In Gnostic eschatology, matter is a radically evil trap, the old earth is a prison to be fled, or, better yet, and eggshell which the fledgling godling cracks. For the Christian, the Earth is sacred, if marred by man’s sin; for the Gnostic, the Earth is yesterday’s news. So, the Slans smashing the Earth at the end of CHILDHOOD’S END has a symbolic resonance to Gnostic myth.

A supernatural God is not the Deceiver in a science fiction story, since science fiction, properly so called, restricts its speculations to natural phenomena. When supernatural phenomena must come on stage in an SF book (which they do more often than not), they are called by parapsychological names, and assumed to be governed by understandable laws of nature. But God can be a deceptive idea: in one risibly naïve passage, Clarke has his devils give historians a magic television set which shows the past, and after a day or two, all religions in the world—but we all know he means one in particular—simply vanishes like dew drop in the sunlight. This is a Gnostic fantasy at its finest: not only is God not real, the idea is so feeble that is vanishes without the need to fight it.

By itself, this looks like atheism, but combined with the other spiritual and magical ideas in the book such as poltergeists, telepathy, precognition and such as the transcendence of mankind into the galactic Overmind, aka the Pleroma, CHILDHOOD’ S END takes on a Gnostic mood and theme, even if it is not literally Gnostic.

For those of you who think I am merely cracking wise to use the word Slans to refer to Clarke’s posthumans, let me remind you that a very similar theme crops up in the last chapter of A.E. Van Vogt’s seminal masterpiece SLAN. In that scene, Jommy Cross discovers that the hunted and persecuted Slans have been secretly guiding the ruling mankind, even though mankind wants nothing but to destroy the superior beings. The eventual fate of mankind is extinction: Mother Nature has a built-in molecular mechanism to insure homo sapiens will grow sterile and die off. So far, so good. The sinister note enters the scene when the benevolent dictator secretly ruling mankind mentions that the Slan mission is to guide outdated homo sapiens into its extinction as peacefully and gracefully as possible.

Boy, there is filial affection for your parent race for you. I hope whatever race replaces the Slans at the end of their evolutionary career euthanizes them with as much loving chloroform. (According to Pnakotic Manuscripts, the Great Race of Yith, who have examined our future, assure us on good authority that the Slans will be replaced by a Coleopterous race of intelligent beetles. Go, Darwin! Whoever comes after us is always better than us! The Morlocks agree!) The idea of a peaceful dieback by homo sapiens, departing like gentlemen with a tip of the hat and a stiff upper lip when our replacements arrive is not original to A.E. van Vogt, but first appeared (as far as I know) in the pages of DARKNESS AND LIGHT by Olaf Stapledon, a book where the protagonist from STARMAKER, views two possible futures of the human race: tyranny and extinction (a dark timeline) or socialist enlightenment and spiritual evolution (the light timeline). The light timeline ends with the far advanced future-humans gracefully surrendering the earth to their children, supermen whom they do not understand.

The Christian idea is that the righteous will be saved and will rise in glorified bodies at the Judgment, and, more important, that anyone can be saved, even if most, sadly, will not. The Gnostic idea is that the Benighted cannot be saved and no effort should be made to pass the secrets of Gnostic lore to them. Not even the Calvinists are so quick to condemn any effort to preach to the poor souls fated for damnation.

Ancient Gnosticism shares a contempt for the Benighted that modern Darwinians share for those races of mankind fate to fail the test of the survival of the fittest. After the destruction of Nazism in the Second World War, the ideal of Eugenics was disgraced, and institutions like Planned Parenthood rapidly shoved in the Memory Hole any reference to their doubleplusungood origins. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Nonetheless, traces of old Eugenics still crop up in the writing and thinking of anyone who acts as if Darwin were a moralist rather than a naturalist: and a contempt for the human race, particularly the desire to see the Superman sweep aside the Untermensch, is an inevitable mental growth from the seed of a Darwinian, rather than religious, view of human transcendence.

You would think science fiction writers, more than anyone, would know science is for investigating nature, and not for idolizing and worshipping. Science, real science, does not even pretend to promise transcendence, superhumanism, godhead, power or salvation. It promises us more and shinier toys. But now and again one comes across a science fiction book that seems to promise a scientific version of the Rapture and the Last Judgment.

As an answer to THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, I personally find CHILDHOOD’S END to offer answers that are naïve, even dangerously so. C.S. Lewis predicted the outcome of attempting to rule mankind with a scientifically organized state with remarkable prescience. In contrast, the visions of Arthur C. Clarke of some transcendence ushered in by UFO people seems childish and unserious.

As Doris T. Meyers argues, C.S. Lewis is a science fiction writer of accomplishment equal or superior to others of his time, and lent to the field a moral seriousness and maturity it is often seen as lacking.


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  • 42 comments

[info]coppervale

April 21 2009, 23:53:12 UTC 3 years ago

Brilliant analysis.

[info]maradydd

April 22 2009, 00:39:25 UTC 3 years ago

If the truths discovered by mathematics are not objective in every sense of the word—things whose reality depends not on the observer but on itself for its truth—then with word “truth” has no reality.

One of the interesting consequences of algorithmic information theory (a field of mathematics pioneered by Gregory Chaitin, expanding on the work of Leibniz and Turing) is that there exist mathematical facts which are true for no reason whatsoever. No proof can be generated to prove them; they are simply, by their nature, true.

[info]matt_robare

April 22 2009, 00:41:37 UTC 3 years ago

How does that work? Are they self-evident axioms, like A=A or "Humans act?"

[info]bear545

3 years ago

[info]matt_robare

April 22 2009, 00:40:23 UTC 3 years ago

If there is one great weakness in human thinking through the ages, it is the natural tendency to compartmentalization. We tend to place processes and ideas in neat little boxes with carefgully defined borders--or treating ill-defined borders as very rigid.

What do all the views of human evolution you just expressed share? The idea that homo sapiens becomes homo superior without any sort of transition, or evolution at all. Evolution is not done in groups, but individually. Each mutation in every new generation, every succesful strategy developed in the previous and passed on--think glacial or continental drift, not model years.

I think Frank Herbert is the only author I've ever read who understood that about evolution and human thinking in general.

[info]xander25

April 22 2009, 01:34:23 UTC 3 years ago

"After the destruction of Nazism in the Second World War, the ideal of Eugenics was disgraced, and institutions like Planned Parenthood rapidly shoved in the Memory Hole any reference to their doubleplusungood origins. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Nonetheless, traces of old Eugenics still crop up in the writing and thinking of anyone who acts as if Darwin were a moralist rather than a naturalist..."

This is the main reason I have decided to resume my study of philosophy.

Some time ago, I was confronted with the argument that if Darwin had never came up with natural selection then Eugenics and hence Nazism would never have happened (though, I would like to point out that the history of Eugenics might be traced back to the Spartans...namely their infanticide). However, whether or not Darwinism, as a natural theory, led to Nazism is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not natural selection actually happened. In the moral sphere, however, the question is completely relevant, a point you hit on (I was wanting to write an essay on this, but you made the distinction so brilliantly in one short paragraph, I doubt there is need).

This line of questioning is one of the major things in my teen years that led me to atheism. I thought that since creationists cannot think sensibly about this topic, then theism contains no sense. Older now, I can see the flaw in that thinking. Natural selection is not a death knell to theism. Nor is the above proof that natural selection happened. Instead, I have decided to return to my studies in philosophy, after having laid dormant for almost two years. To fully answer the question, the original source material ought to be read. Additionally, it would require sound thinking to be truly valuable. Prudence suggests, that if one desires sound thinking then one should turn to the pages of sound thinkers (Aristotle, Plato, among others). I hope and pray that the journey should proof fruitful.

[info]drfuzz

April 22 2009, 15:16:27 UTC 3 years ago

Re:

"Some time ago, I was confronted with the argument that if Darwin had never came up with natural selection then Eugenics and hence Nazism would never have happened (though, I would like to point out that the history of Eugenics might be traced back to the Spartans...namely their infanticide)."

If one traces eugenics roots back only a short way, one sees that it ties into hte writings of Madame Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy, or as it is known now 'New Age'. In other words, gnosticism, painted over and given a new name.

[info]ladyhobbit

April 22 2009, 02:17:38 UTC 3 years ago

Essays like this are the reason I keep coming back to your site: thoughtful, mature discussions of real ideas. (OK, I admit I also really enjoyed the piece on how to debate on the Internet, which made me whoop with laughter rather late at night.)

I really enjoyed your analysis of Perelandra. The parallels with Milton's Paradise Lost were the topic of my bachelor's thesis, lo these many years ago, way before Lewis was an industry. (I had to send away for unpublished dissertations in that pre-Internet era.) I used A Preface to Paradise Lost too, of course.

Lewis had a remarkable wholeness as a writer. The themes of his scholarly writing are found in his religious writing and in his novels. This kind of integrity is extraordinarily rare.

[info]johncwright

April 22 2009, 14:40:53 UTC 3 years ago

Credit Where Credit is Due

"I really enjoyed your analysis of Perelandra

No, no, no! This was not my analysis of Perelendra! This was the analysis of a book I am reading, by an author named Doris T. Meyers! The glory is hers, not mine.

"Lewis had a remarkable wholeness as a writer. The themes of his scholarly writing are found in his religious writing and in his novels."

I wished I had space to quote Meyers brilliant analysis of how Lewis wove seamlessly together medieval notions of the morningstar Venus and modern (for his time) notions of the astronomical planet Venus. Just the passage on why the cloud-sky of Venus is gold is fascinating.

[info]ladyhobbit

3 years ago

[info]m_barlow

April 22 2009, 03:08:54 UTC 3 years ago

Childhood's End

Its a long time since I read CE, and when I did I wasn't a very accurate reader as far as the emotional content of a book was concerned. But my reading is that the book is a tragedy. Humans are finished. We might have been like the 'devils', able to grow in scientific knowledge, increase our lifespans, explore the galaxy etc. (The 'Clarkian dream'). But we can't - all we can do is die and give rise to something else which isn't human. Its not a complete tragedy - the something else is in its way magnificent - but its not us.

[info]m_francis

April 22 2009, 04:50:17 UTC 3 years ago

If the truths discovered by mathematics are not objective in every sense of the word—things whose reality depends not on the observer but on itself for its truth—then with word “truth” has no reality.

Of course the post-modern argument actually is that "truth" has no reality.

Mathematical truths are different in nature from physical facts. Measure all the round basins in the world an you will not find one with an irrational ratio of circumference to diameter. All measurements are made to a finite number of decimal places.

But Aristotle did hold that mathematical knowledge [and metaphysical knowledge] was true. The whole realist position was that universal abstractions have real existence. Just not as empirical things, material bodies.

We have endowed "objective" with mystic power. It has gobbled up the word "real" and thereby suffered linguistic indigestion. The problem with subjective things like sound and taste and pain is that they are real but not objective. They do not exist in the object, but in the subject. But subjective is not the hissing word it has become among the worshipers of science. Galileo at least knew this much.

There is a helpful discussion of the realist position here:
http://realphysics.blogspot.com/2006/10/degrees-of-abstraction.html

[info]johncwright

April 22 2009, 14:45:35 UTC 3 years ago

The Truth that there is no Truth cannot be Truth

"Of course the post-modern argument actually is that "truth" has no reality."

That statement is a manifest self contradiction. The statement that 'there is no truth', if true, is false.

If the post-modernists were honest, and they saw honestly that the Tao which cannot be spoken is not the Tao, they would lay their hands across their mouths, retire to meditate and caves, and speak no more of what cannot be spoken.

Instead they are vermin who should he killed like foxes or stouts or other critters that prey on human beings. Their believe in the non-existence of truth only exists in the Second Person "What *you* say is untruth because there is no truth" never ever the First Person "What *I* say is untruth because there is no truth."

Their whole philosophy is an antiphilosophy: it is the informal logical error known as 'Poisoning the Well.'

[info]m_francis

3 years ago

[info]rlbell

3 years ago

[info]automatthew

April 22 2009, 15:18:07 UTC 3 years ago

"We have endowed "objective" with mystic power. It has gobbled up the word "real" and thereby suffered linguistic indigestion. The problem with subjective things like sound and taste and pain is that they are real but not objective. They do not exist in the object, but in the subject. But subjective is not the hissing word it has become among the worshipers of science"

Do you have an opinion on Popper's three worlds? Though he gives Aristotle short shrift in The Open Society and its Enemies, I have not found their frameworks to be incompatible.

[info]m_francis

3 years ago

[info]maradydd

3 years ago

[info]rlbell

3 years ago

[info]djmahon

3 years ago

[info]maradydd

3 years ago

[info]djmahon

3 years ago

[info]kokorognosis

April 22 2009, 13:05:40 UTC 3 years ago

Entertaining and enlightening reading, as always :)

I've always found it odd that, in science fiction, far future races are always concerned with dying gracefully rather than fighting for survival. Babylon 5 is about the only series I can think of where a "highly evolved" race doesn't simply lay down and die when faced with something like the star of their home going supernova, or their universe facing heat death. And the Xelee sequence, I suppose, but the end of Ring states that humanity won't be around long enough to see real planets in their new universe.

Surely a race that can spread out to the whole universe, who can link all creation into a single mind that will think wondrous thoughts, can preoccupy itself with opening up a new universe? Surely the 18th men had the ability to move Neptune, with 30,000 years to prepare before the sun killed them?

I wonder, is it just because scifi traces the origins of its tropes more to Stapledon and Wells than it does to Lewis? Is it part of the "real" sciency mindset that this is all their is, there is nothing beyond this mortal, entropy-infected universe?

[info]johncwright

April 22 2009, 14:57:58 UTC 3 years ago

Science, Stoicism and Berseker Rage

"I wonder, is it just because scifi traces the origins of its tropes more to Stapledon and Wells than it does to Lewis? Is it part of the "real" sciency mindset that this is all their is, there is nothing beyond this mortal, entropy-infected universe?"

I submit that is it is simply a matter of logic. If your highly advanced race cannot escape entropy and death, the only two choices are (1) to struggle, when you know the struggle to be futile and counterproductive, like a noble pagan drawing his sword at Rangnarok against the Frost Giants, doomed to die, but resolved bravely to die (2) to perish without regret, like noble Cato of Utica throwing himself on his sword, dying to deny Caesar his glory.

The option dying like Christ and rising like Christ again in glory on the Third Day, is one the anti-Christians have walled off from themselves. Only the pagan options are left: die like Einhenjar, swords pointed outward, hilt in hand, or die like Cato, sword pointed inward, hilt on ground.

Without Christ, the only options are Sorrow and Wrath, the melancholy despair of Romeo or else the ire of Hamlet, who dies magnificently with sword in hand, slaying his foe even as the poison works its way to his heart. No matter how romantically poets paint such deaths, to Christians either one is mortal sin.

[info]automatthew

April 22 2009, 15:20:39 UTC 3 years ago

Niven has avoided this trope, so far as I can remember. The Puppeteers had an ingenious solution to the death of their sun, and they were so highly evolved as to be cowards.

[info]mrmandias

April 23 2009, 19:26:41 UTC 3 years ago

"I wonder, is it just because scifi traces the origins of its tropes more to Stapledon and Wells than it does to Lewis? Is it part of the "real" sciency mindset that this is all their is, there is nothing beyond this mortal, entropy-infected universe?"

In Malacandra, what distinguishes the good, advanced Malacandrans from the bumptious retrograde humans is their willingness to just lay down and die, to go gently into that good night. Not that they believe it really is a permanent night, but still.

[info]m_barlow

April 22 2009, 16:15:38 UTC 3 years ago

Old races

A lot of SF about 'old races' seems to be based on the error 'old races are like old poeple'. In fact even if a race or species is old, the inviduals in it won't be, and will behave in the same way as they always have. There are some ridiculous scenes in one of David Brin's books where the old races cluster round a red star like old folks warming their feet at a fire...

Another fault is having old races reaching for 'transendence'. Again, this is reasonable for an aging invidual, but not for a species. Or... is it just a way of getting rid of technologically advanced species who would otherwise unbalance the plot?

[info]rlbell

April 24 2009, 17:07:24 UTC 3 years ago

Re: Old races

I think that what makes a race an old race in classic fiction is finally leaving 'the flesh time'. The society discovers the secrets to their species' immortality, everybody stops having children and they grow to great wisdom (or so we hope).

It is not just science fiction that does this. There are not a lot of young elves in Tolkien and more than a few are nearly as old as the world.

Continuing to breed (because they continue to die) is a hallmark of the young races.

A good description of such an old race, with individuals that we can relate to, is the city of Diaspar in Clarke's The City and the Stars.

[info]sun_stealer

April 29 2009, 00:37:02 UTC 3 years ago

Re: Old races

By Transcendance, do you mean the everyone becomes energy beings, or do you mean a species attains Godtech and declares, "We know all, we see all. We withdraw from the story, but reserve the right to deus ex machina at will."

[info]dirigibletrance

April 22 2009, 16:17:39 UTC 3 years ago

Interestingly, however, both The Matrix and Dark City had an incomplete Gnosticsm. Man is indeed trapped in an illusion. However, when he escapes the illusion, he awakens to a world even more terrible than the one he left. One in which mankind is hunted, used as a toy, abused, and killed needless by inhuman beings with nefarious purposes. The real world is a world where man fights monsters, and even when achieving victory, is left with a broken world and must somehow pick up the pieces.

I wonder what they're trying to say by that.

[info]johncwright

April 22 2009, 18:27:13 UTC 3 years ago

"I wonder what they're trying to say by that."

It is the Gnosticism of the modern age, the age of hedonists. Neo of the Matrix (at least in the first movie) and John of the Dark City both seize control of the illusion and turn it to their own ends, making the unpleasant but false world better and more pleasant, but not less false.

The old fashioned Gnostics were concerned with truth, not pleasure.

I say this as a fan of DARK CITY -- it is absolutely, positively, my favorite SF film of all time. But the ending reflects an adolescent (and Gnostic) escapist power fantasy, concerned more with freedom than truth.

[info]fpb

April 23 2009, 17:17:32 UTC 3 years ago

Lewis himself argued that his work was a reaction to Stapledon, but your parallels with Wells are convincing.

[info]sun_stealer

April 29 2009, 00:17:18 UTC 3 years ago

Is the gnosticism of our day a continuation of the ancient heresy or a revival of it?

Also, it is not science they idealize, but SCIENCE!

[info]cacticus

May 1 2009, 15:07:53 UTC 3 years ago

Outside reference

I'd like to let you know that this writing has been referenced in the following article:

http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2009/04/religion-in-science-fiction-2-metaphysics-of-science-fiction.html

[info]yiming68

August 18 2010, 03:04:50 UTC 1 year ago

It is very good
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