John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2009-06-05 15:33:00
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Before there was Time, there was no Time
. [info]jordan179 opines:

I don't think that the Big Bang was a "miracle" in the supernatural sense -- I think the laws of physics embrace more than one Universe, that's all. And I don't have the foggiest idea how big is the Multiverse; my suspicion is "bigger than I can possibly imagine."

But I do suspect that something very like our concept of thermodynamics applies to the whole shebang.


The problem with this posture it that is asks us to accept something that is hard to support, namely, the idea that there are multiple continua which somehow all obey the same laws of nature, in order to escape a conclusion that is easy to support, namely, that the Big Bang, or creation ex nihilo, was a miracle in the supernatural sense of the word.

To support this statement, let me make a careful distinction.

On the one hand, other "universes" in a "multiverse" would be physical places like ours.

When a science fiction writer speculates that there is one or more other timespace continuums as real as our own but outside our light-cone of possible positions in time and space that we can reach or receive information from -- then the science fiction writer is talking about another part of this, our natural universe.

He is talking about the possibility that, while there may be minor differences of conditions there, or even major differences in things we (incorrectly) once called laws of nature before the other continuum was discovered, the other continuum is a natural world and operates by the laws of nature.

Think of the 'shadows' in Roger Zelazny's NINE PRINCES IN AMBER, or the multiverse of Moorcock, or the Mirror, Mirror universe in STAR TREK, or even the Weaponeers of Qward in GREEN LANTERN. The concept of parallel dimensions is clearly a naturalistic concept. Let us call them therefore not other universes, for that terminology involves a paradox: let us call them other worlds, since they are natural cosmoses like our own.

When we speculate what conditions might obtain in parallel continua, often it is suggested that these multiple worlds might contain other constants aside from the ones we know: gravity might operate by an inverse-cube law, for example, or Plank's constant might have a different value.

Unfortunately, the speculative base for multiple worlds is insufficiently rigorous to erect a defensible conclusion on top of it.

One could argue that other worlds might have other physical constants, but there is neither evidence nor logical proof to support the assertion. One could argue with equal logic that, for a reason yet undiscovered by human physicists, other physical constants aside from the ones we know are not possible in this or any other universe, and for the same reason that a non-three-sided triangle is not possible: that it turns out to be a logically incoherent concept, something that exists in speech only, not in reality.

How to decide between these two arguments? Since neither has nor can have a scintilla of evidence to support it, and since neither has any argument or proof from first principles, inductive nor deductive, to lend it any persuasive weigh at all, a fair minded jury would dismiss the case without a hearing. Even the idea that there are multiple worlds rather than one world rests on the most doubtful speculation.

If it were found that another continuum had some other basic conditions of physical constants -- let us say a world where Aristotelian physics was found to be correct, or Newtonian mechanics, or one where the speed of light was three meters a second -- then, for the sake of clarity of terms, we would have to say not that these other world had 'different laws of nature' (for such a phrase is a paradox). To be precise, we would have to say that what we, in the limited conditions of our little cosmos, thought were laws of nature, turned out to be merely a description of merely local conditions.

To discover what we thought the universal laws turned out to be local ordinances will shock and disorient no honest scientist. In much the same way, for speeds far below the speed of light, the behavior of physical bodies matches the description offered by Newton, and conditions on the earth's surface match the geometry described by Euclid. It is only at high speeds or under conditions of immense gravity or over large distances that the Newtonian description breaks down: Mercury's orbit processes in stubbornly non-Newtonian ways, for example, or lightrays bend passing near a star. Euclidean geometry does not describe the behavior near the event horizon of a black hole as well as Reinmannian geometry, for another example. Newton and Euclid are not natural law, but local ordinances.

In that case, whatever laws were discovered or presumed to obtain over all continuums in the "multiverse" would be the real laws of nature. Jordan speculates (and, I think, with reason) that the law of entropy must obtain in all continuums in the "multiverse".

I put the word "multiverse" in quotes only to remind the reader that this term is a paradox. We are, precisely speaking, talking only about one universe. The universe by definition is one. The universe is the realm of nature, what the Greeks called phusis, what we call physics. The other parallel worlds to ours, if they are natural worlds governed by laws of nature, would be physical worlds, and their behavior would be described by physics.

Anyone and anything governed solely by the laws of nature, the real and universal laws of nature, is in the universe, which is to say, is in nature. By definition, anything outside, above, beyond, or axiomatic to the system of the universe, that is, superior to nature, is supernatural.

On the other hand, the supernatural is not and cannot be another physical place with other laws of nature.

This distinction avoids much confusion in these arguments. I have heard, for example, theists argue that, given any number of possible worlds, there must therefore be one world occupied by a being of such immense power that he could create universes at his command. This argument is merely a confusion of words. You can call world-making creatures gods if you like, but they would be natural creatures bound by the laws of nature.

This is not what Christians mean when they talk about God, who is supernatural. A more apt and precise word for such a being would be "Demiurge,"

You can even say the world-making creatures can create whatever laws of nature are desired in a special area of spacetime they are molding, and the world-makers have as much ability to make their local conditions suit themselves as the Architect in the Matrix, or a Ensign Berkeley on the holodeck, or the Lords in Famer's "World of Tiers" series has to make the laws of their vestpocket worlds. The Demiurge can program the local conditions to be anything he likes, within the limits of his budget and technology, but he cannot break the laws of nature by definition--because if they can be broken from inside nature, they are not laws of nature.

The local conditions created by engineers folding space to make new continuums is not what a scientist, if he were speaking precisely, would call a law of nature. For example, if we discovered that the speed of light in shadow Amber was instantaneous (as Aristotle, for example, proposed), whereas the speed of light in shadow Earth was 300000 m/s, then "the speed of light is c to all observers" is not a law of nature. It is merely a local condition, like saying you cannot light a match on the moon. (In this example, it would, however, be a law of nature that the blood of an Amberite spilled on the Pattern can destroy it, and any shadows issuing from it. Earth, as well as Amber, would be destroyed if the Pattern were blotted out by prince-blood. Since it applies universally, it is a natural law).

For the purpose of this argument, let us call the physical constants known to operate in every place we can reach or sense "our local conditions". They may indeed be universal laws of natural for all parallel worlds, but we do not know that and can never know that.

What, then is a law of nature? A law of nature is where cause leads to effect, not merely in one case or set of cases, but in all cases.

In other words, we call it a law of nature if a particular cause always leads to a particular effect. If all bodies, in this and every natural world, are always and everywhere attracted inversely to the proportion of their distance and directly in proportion of their mass, then the Law of Gravity is a law of nature. If, somehow, in other parallel continuum, their laws of gravity would deal with different proportions, then whatever physical cause it might be (something to do with the geometry of curved space, perhaps) that defined their particular local gravitational behavior would be the law of nature.

Who knows what it might be? "In convex timespace continuums greater than pi, gravity is by inverse square; less than pi is inverse cubed; when the timespace continuum is concave, then antigravity obtains." Let us just pretend this is the case. If so, Newton's Law is not a law of nature, but a local condition pertinent only to our pi-high convex timespace continuum. The timespace continuum next door, where Peter Pan lives, antigravity is the order of the day. But since the law relating gravity to something more fundamental applies to all timespace continuums in the universe, ergo it alone is rightly called a law of nature.

Now then, having with much difficulty drawn a distinction between what is really a universe and what is merely a local continuum or local world in the universe, and having drawn a distinction between what is really a law of nature and what is merely a local condition of physical behavior in one continuum or world in the universe, let us define one more term that is otherwise slippery and ambiguous.

What is a miracle? We use the word to mean anything astounding, or any sign or wonder sent by God. But here we mean something more specific:

Inside the universe, natural objects behave according to nature. Every object and event that is open to being described by mechanical causation is assumed to have a cause prior in time and sufficient to bring out the result observed.

(I realize some modern physicists use a contrary language to describe certain quantum weirdness, but these men make a subtle metaphysical error, and since metaphysics is not their field, they can be forgiven. Their language is deliberately paradoxical in order to avoid an implication springing from a limitation built into the epistomology of empiricism--but for the purposes of this essay, let us assume physicists believe the axioms on which physics is based, even if they talk as if they do not.)

If we saw, or, rather, experienced something that behaved not according to nature, where no cause sufficient to produce the effect seen could be ascribed to a mechanical cause, we rightly call this a miracle.

The Virgin Birth is a miracle, because virgins are not able, in and of themselves, to give birth. The Resurrection of Lazarus is a miracle, because dead bodies are not able, in nature, to come again to life.

Skeptics accept this definition of a miracle when they say that by definition miracles cannot exist: since science looks only at the mechanical causes of repeatable natural events, science must simply stand mute when it hears a report of a non-repeatable supernatural event. No investigation of the medical condition of Mary or of Lazarus could possibly lead to the expectation that she could give birth without seed, or he could be dead three days and stinking, and wake up and walk again. Everything should have a natural explanation. (From this they leap to the conclusion that, since it should not have happened, it did not happen. An impermissible inference, but one commonplace today.)

But while every report of every other miracle can be doubted by the skeptic, the Big Bang produces a particular difficulty for them: because here there is no sincere doubt about the event. The Steady State theory is of historical interest only, as dead as the theory of Phlogiston. The observed universe is not infinitely old, but had a definite beginning point, estimated to be about 15 billion years ago.

The current scientific consensus is not merely that all matter and energy, but also time and space, issued from one submicroscopic point, which contained all the energy in the universe. Some scientists argue that the physical constants of our universe, which, as far as we know, are indeed the laws of nature, were established at that moment, due to the initial conditions.

(For the reasons I give above, I criticize this terminology as being paradoxical: if it is a law of nature, it cannot be established by an act of the physics involved the initial conditions. It is at best a local condition. "Cause and effect" is a law of nature--nothing comes from nothing. If the speed of light was established by some peculiar ratio of how matter-energy erupted into timespace, then it is a local condition: it is an effect of a previous cause.)

But if we agree that time itself began at that time, this introduces a fatal paradox the naturalist cannot explain. Indeed, even his language has no words for it, his system has no axioms for it.

Time is that condition where cause leads to effect. If cause and effect ran backward, time would run backward, and to us time would seem to be running forward, because the only thing the word "time" really means is the category of cause and effect. That twice two equals four, or that four is twice two, is not a relation of cause and effect, but of logical axiom and conclusion, and for this reason we notice that the truths of mathematics are eternal, that is, not of nor in time.

Hence, time itself cannot be an effect of a previous cause.

If, as modern science says, the Big Bang created timespace, then not only was there nothing "before" the Big Bang, the phrase "Before the Big Bang" has no meaning, no more than the phrase "further north than the North Pole" has meaning.

By definition, no laws of nature can exist outside of the realm of timespace/matter-energy. Logic forbids that there be cause leading to effect when there is no time, and hence there can be no particular causes tied to particular effects, which is our definition of a law of nature.

Even if many parallel multiple continuums arose from that one Big Bang, and even if we are only aware of one narrow tube of timespace issuing from that moment of cosmic genesis, and even if any number of other tubes also issue from it, nevertheless, time began at that moment, which means, something happened that has no sufficient natural cause.

Let me emphasize this.

The Virgin Birth could have been due (let us allow the imagination to slip the reign and gallop freely) by space aliens kidnapping Mary and impregnating her with soul microbes Alpha Draconis. It is not logically impossible.

Lazarus could have been merely in a coma, and possessed of an amulet from Atlantis which allowed him to appear to be rotting when he was actually merely in suspended animation.

Or the Gospels could have been written by the Adam Weishaupt in 1776, and only retroactively introduced into all of Europe by means of a special technology called "tuning", where matter and energy can be rearranged to produce any form of false evidence: and, of course, everyone on earth had their memories erased and replaced by Dr. Schreber with injections to the skull. It is not logically impossible.

Lazarus could be a vampire, one of those special types of romantic vampires who sparkle in the sunlight, and he was just sitting in the tomb waiting to hear if Jesus would give him permission to marry Bella Swan, whom he loves.

If there is some true but natural explanation (no matter how comically unlikely) sufficient to produce the observed effect from natural causes for the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection of Lazarus, then these are not miracles.

But to say the Big Bang had a natural cause IS logically impossible. To say the all laws of nature arose from a law of nature is nonsense.

The Big Bang cannot arise from natural causes because no natural causes, no time, and hence no laws of nature existed "before" the Big Bang. Indeed, as mentioned above, there is not even any such thing as "before" the Big Bang. Recall that laws of nature are universal cases of cause and effect, which is another word for time.

How, then, do we explain the Big Bang? What caused all of nature to arise from nothing?

At least two cases present themselves:

First, the obscure case.

While the Big Bang seems to have arisen without a natural cause, we are required to assume some mechanical cause is prior to every event, since this is an axiom of science.

So when modern astronomers and physicists agree that timespace and natural law arose at the Big Bang, we have to pretend they did not say that, or they don't really mean it.

Instead, we have to assume that the Big Bang was a purely local phenomenon, and that time is infinite outside this, our local continuum. Our continuum had a beginning, but something else, a metacontinuum, did not.The universe is older than it seems. Call this "Otherspace".

We have to assume the universe is larger than it seems, and contains areas not open to inspection and never to ever be open to inspection: we can call these other areas "multiple worlds" or "imaginary time" or "othertime."

We have to assume Time, but another kind of time or another continuum of time, exists outside or above our local continuum, and events in that "otherspace" -- events which had natural causes -- gave rise to the Big Bang.

Now, since our local time began with the Big Bang, the othertime of the otherspace stands in relation to us in a fashion that we can neither define nor imagine. We cannot say the otherspace is "before" our continuum, because our model says that time arose at the Big Bang. This is not a relation of cause and effect as we understand it, so let us call this "othercause."

This otherspace, since it (by definition) is merely a natural continuum, no doubt suffering from entropy, and ergo only finitely old, must also have had a beginning: and this beginning must in turn have been triggered by an even older and larger continuum which stands in the same otherspace relation to it as it does to us.

And that larger continuum likewise, and so on, ad infinitum. This infinite regression taken as a whole has no first cause, and so therefore the initial conditions which defined it and set it in motion do not exist.

We see a row of dominoes toppling, but we assume that there was never any first domino that fell and started the motion, so the motion exists without a mover.

We will just assume this paradox in defiance of the laws of science, which say that everything has a cause.

The paradox is piled atop paradox because the relation here is not one of cause and effect, but of othercause and othereffect, that is, a relationship not of time but of some undefined and undefinable form of parenthood. Our timespace proceeds from the othertime, but was not caused by the othertime: so it was begotten, but not made. (And you thought the mystery of the Incarnation was obscure.)

In other words, in order to avoid the appearance of a miraculous beginning to nature, we have to assume the following (1) an undefined 'othertime' which is not like the time we know (2) an undefined sort of 'othercause' which is not like the cause and effect relations we understand (3) an 'otherspace' we assume without any evidence, which we presume to be natural and yet also to have the ability to produce other and smaller continuums, as offspring (4) an infinite regression of these othercauses through othertime, which violates the fundamental assumption of science.

These implications go beyond astronomy. The naturalist assumption means we also assume the beauty and intricacy of the universe we see, and things like free will, human dignity, the laws of nature and the laws of morality, are either accidents, unintentional, coincidences, or illusions.

Not only is everything here for no reason, the question of how it got here has an answer that it worse than incomprehensible.

Second, the obvious case.

While the Big Bang arose without a natural cause, it is a paradox, and merely a nonsense of words, to say it arose for no reason. Whatever arises for no reason cannot be reasoned about: if something actually did happen for no reason, we humans could not reason about it, not even insofar as to say it actually happened for no reason or not.

So it happened for a reason, but it could not be a natural reason. Ergo, it must have been a supernatural reason.

Causes in nature are mechanical: but the reason which gave rise to the Big Bang could not have been a mechanical cause (the warrant for this statement was given above, viz., the Big Bang arose without time, cause and effect are synonyms for time, ergo no time means no mechanical cause).

We are all of us perfectly familiar with a reality that arises for no mechanical cause: namely, actions of the will of beings with free will.

These are causes that arise, if at all, due to future circumstances, not past conditions. We decide to do things based on what we hope or fear will eventuate if we do or do not do them. At first glance, this seems to be the very opposite of mechanical causation. It is causation which arises from goal-related, or future-orientated behavior. We call this final cause. We will "this" for the sake of "that." Mechanical causes do not do anything for the sake of goal. Raindrops fall because gravity acts on them, not because they are hungry for the ground and dive toward it, laughing.

While causes in nature are mechanical, causes of the will not only seem not mechanical, but positively alien to the normal mechanics of the universe, since the cause is in the future of the effect.

Of course, the imagination or picture in our heads of the future can be said to be in the present, or in the past, so, strictly speaking, the cause is not in the future, and cause and effect are not being reversed in that sense. But since those pictures in our heads (if we are not robots or madmen) do not arise from anything was can describe as merely mechanical causes, the supernatural nature of the free will remains an open question. We cannot, at this point, logically rule it out as supernatural. We can affirm that attempts to reduce cognition to mechanical causes are paradoxical and risible.

So, again, the cause of the Big Bang was not the operation of a law of nature, but -- since no other option presents itself -- the cause was a final cause, that is, an operation of the Will.

It could not have been natural or mechanical; ergo it was supernatural and deliberate.

A will cannot exist without one-who-wills. What else can we say about this One?

The One has sufficient power to create time, space, matter, energy ex nihilo. So we are not talking about a Demiurge or a mere engineer bound by the laws of nature. We can call this trait omnipotence.

Since this One exists before, or, rather, above, nature, He is eternal, at least in the same fashion as mathematical objects, ideas of justice and beauty, and other things that do not partake of time. We can call this trait eternity.

Since there are no laws of nature in eternity, the One cannot be a mechanical process, an idiot savant, or any other form of contingent being, that is, a being who rests on another for his existence and definition. The One cannot be unintelligent or merely operating by reflex.
This means the universe was designed: i.e. that the universe is a Creation, and that it was created by a Creator.

If omnipotent and eternal, is He therefore omniscient, on the ground that the ends of all His creation can be seen and known by Him at once? This makes an impermissible assumption. We can say, based on the argument so far, that He might be.

Is the creator benevolent? Did he make this beautiful universe just to torture us? That is something I do not think merely logic can deduce. If you think existence and life are better than the unimaginable condition of never-having-had-been, then you have to grant at least some benevolent motive to the Creator. If you think yourself better off dead, then you are probably not reading this in any case, or not really serious about reaching that better condition.

But no matter. Whether the Creator is the benevolent deity described by the Christians, or is a remote and disinterested watchmaker as described by the Deists, or is a serene and untroubled unmoved mover, perhaps as described by Aristotle or Lucretius, we can nonetheless deduce that, if the Big Bang is what it seems to be, the origin point of timespace and nature, then the Creator is a god, and he is eternal and supernatural.

Now, why do I say this is easy to believe? Because all human cultures since before the dawn of writing have believed in some sort of god or some sort of creation or another. I report that it is easy to believe as a matter of psychological fact.

But I also assert that by Occam's Razor, it is the simplest hypothesis.

We have one unknown, the universe, which cannot (by definition) arise from nothing for no cause: therefore if we postulate a cause sufficient to create the universe, we are required by logic to describe that uncaused first cause as a supernatural and eternal creator. It is a simple hypothesis which explains all the known facts with one assumption.

Contrast that with the argument above, which postulated at least four unwarranted if not impossible assumptions.

You may ask: but, sir, you only push the paradox away by one remove! Surely if you invoke a creator to explain creation, you must then account for the creator. If God made the universe, who made God? Are there an infinite chain of Gods, each older and bigger than the last, making a small God inside him like so many nested Russian dolls?

Ah, but the question contains an assumption we cannot permit. We posit that the Big Bang has a cause, among other reasons, because we know (within a certain approximate) when it happened. A natural event, or even a natural universe, must have a cause, natural or supernatural. But nothing in our chain of reasoning says that anything in supernatural eternity must have a cause, aside from a final cause. To repeat the example above, twice two is four "because" of the logic of mathematics, but not "because" of any mechanical event in nature.

If we say every human law, in order to be a law, must be enacted by a lawmaker, nothing in that statement implied the lawmaker himself is a thing whose nature is such that he was enacted by a lawmaker. The computer programmer is a man, not a line of code bound by the programming language he uses to write code. The musician who writes a symphony is not a string of notes arranged by a symphony-writer of human lives. Likewise here: if the creator makes a universe, and the universe is defined by time and space and matter and energy such that no mechanical cause arises without a prior mechanical cause, nothing implies the creator is also bound inside time and defined by a set of previous mechanical causes. Indeed, the reasoning above reaches an opposite conclusion.

Finally, the obvious case is not only obvious because every human soul is psychologically fitted (almost as if by design!) to believe it, and because it satisfies Occam's Razor in a fashion that a towering infinite regression of undefined and unimaginable othercauses in othertime cannot, but also because the obvious case satisfies both the testimony of history, and offers elegant explanation for those things the nonobvious case cannot explain, such as free will, or the beauty of the stars.

If the obvious case is true, then reports in history of miracles are not necessarily all false: which means that all the people you know who believe in God or believe in miracles are not necessarily fools and dullards, and the things that reports (that we have no reason otherwise to disbelieve) say happened actually did happen.

Best of all, certain specific moral actions, such as self-sacrifice for a cause greater than yourself, which are either merely sentiment, or Darwinian programming, or madness in the obscure case, become reasonable and feasible in the obvious case.

Theism hence is not only the simplest explanation for astronomy, but also for metaphysics, morality, and other sciences currently without any underpinning logic to them.

If the universe arose out of no natural cause, that is a miracle. To assume that something can arise from nothing is an insolent rejection of scientific principles; to assume that there must have been a natural cause before the universe in the conditions where no concept of 'before' is possible is awkward, if not incomprehensible.

It is really so much simpler to believe in an infinite regress of othertime somewhere in non-timespace than to believe this creation had a creator? Really?



(97 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]jordan179
2009-06-05 11:55 pm UTC (link)
You're conflating "natural law" as applicable only to this Universe with "Natural Law" as it may apply to all Universes. It is quite possible that physics, and hence in one sense "natural law," may vary from Universe to Universe, while some sort of Natural Law supra-physics governs all Universes, including the physics of all possible Universes.

I strongly suspect thermodynamics to be part of that supra-physics, because it is extremely difficult to conceive of a Universe not operating according to some version of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Though of course, I could be wrong about that.

In the case of supra-physics, the Universe would indeed come from a "natural" cause. You could call it "supra-natural" if you liked, but that's not the same thing as "supernatural," as the cause would indeed by lawful.

I rather like the variant of this theory where Universes are quasi-living things with their physics as their "DNA," and capable of passing on their physics with mutations to daughter Universes. I could even see past this to some Universes having sexual reproduction, though I'm not sure how that would work.

If Universes are alive and their physics heritable than they evolve: it could be that the ability to generate life forms is pro-survival or pro-reproduction; or it could be a by-product of some other process (such as the generation of many medium-sized black holes) which serves a similar purpose.

It is really so much simpler to believe in an infinite regress of othertime somewhere in non-timespace than to believe this creation had a creator? Really?

But postulating a Universe-Maker is also a case of infinite regress. Who created the Universe or Multiverse from which he came? Was the Universe-Maker himself made, or evolved? You can by fiat claim that he's neither created nor evolved, but Always Is and Always Was, but that's pure tautology: there is nothing in the profile "entity capable of creating this Universe" which implies that is Always Is and Always Was -- merely that it's at least as old as this Universe.

There is also nothing about a Universe-Maker hypothesis that implies believing anything like Christianity. Or even monotheism. There might be a race of Universe-Makers. Or there could be a Christian God who is actually something far lesser than the Universe-Maker. Or the Universe-Maker could be us, reaching back from the End O'Time. Or, if you want to get bizarre, Lord Jagged of Canaria, etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]robert_mitchell
2009-06-06 12:28 am UTC (link)
Mr. Wright covered both those points in his post. Your core problem is, given you understand thermodynamics, no matter how may epicycles you add to the system, there is a beginning and an end. The beginning is a miracle, no matter how many loops you add to it, unless you believe that perpetual motion will work if the machine is big enough.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jordan179
2009-06-06 12:36 am UTC (link)
On the contrary, the beginning comes from natural law, just like the end, whether we're talking about the beginning of a life, a planet, a Universe, or a Multiverse. Just because we don't yet understand why and how something begins does not mean that we should intone "Deep Magic From Before the World!" and promptly abandon the quest for knowledge.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Who abandon the quest for knowledge? The one who does not answer. - [info]johncwright, 2009-06-06 12:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maradydd, 2009-06-06 04:06 am UTC

[info]johncwright
2009-06-06 12:44 am UTC (link)
"You're conflating "natural law" as applicable only to this Universe with "Natural Law" as it may apply to all Universes. It is quite possible that physics, and hence in one sense "natural law," may vary from Universe to Universe, while some sort of Natural Law supra-physics governs all Universes, including the physics of all possible Universes."

Since I spent over six paragraphs making precisely this distinction, which I repeated over and over, I am not only surprised that you say I am conflating the two concepts, I am shocked.

Please reread what I wrote.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]marycatelli
2009-06-06 04:06 am UTC (link)
But postulating a Universe-Maker is also a case of infinite regress. Who created the Universe or Multiverse from which he came?

Begs the question. Why do you assume that he had to come from a Universe or Multiverse.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jordan179
2009-06-06 05:19 am UTC (link)
But postulating a Universe-Maker is also a case of infinite regress. Who created the Universe or Multiverse from which he came?

Begs the question. Why do you assume that he had to come from a Universe or Multiverse?


Because everything comes from somewhere. Simply defining him as an Uncaused Cause does not solve the problem: no problems can be solved merely through redefinition.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]robert_mitchell, 2009-06-06 06:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 06:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrisw10, 2009-06-06 07:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 01:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]robert_mitchell, 2009-06-06 02:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 02:51 pm UTC
Sure it does. - [info]misterpengo, 2009-06-06 05:29 pm UTC
Re: Sure it does. - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 06:09 pm UTC
Re: Sure it does. - [info]misterpengo, 2009-06-06 06:57 pm UTC
Re: Sure it does. - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 07:21 pm UTC
Re: Sure it does. - [info]misterpengo, 2009-06-06 09:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2009-06-06 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-06-06 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 07:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-06-06 08:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-07 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_francis, 2009-06-06 04:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 04:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_francis, 2009-06-06 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-06 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_francis, 2009-06-06 08:11 pm UTC
When universes start having sex...
[info]eonomine88
2009-06-07 03:01 am UTC (link)
...it's time to throw in the towel, jordan179. The point is, cosmoses passing on "genes" in some grand othernatural orgy is clearly at least as absurd and incomprehensible as the postulation of a Deity. Both concepts contain things which are and ever shall be ineffable to the human mind.

The question is now, of course, why we should keep the assumption that everything is nature when it leads us to postulate natural othernatures wholly unlike nature? Why not just go ahead and say there's a supernatural realm? We're stating exactly this conclusion if we follow the other course, that is, assuming all is nature, except we state it in such a way as to disguise it from ourselves because I suppose we feel it a tad icky.

Fancy jargon is often a mask for simple contradictions or truths we find unpleasant.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 03:40 am UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]eonomine88, 2009-06-07 04:00 am UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 05:16 am UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]rlbell, 2009-06-07 01:22 pm UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 03:11 pm UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]rlbell, 2009-06-07 07:09 pm UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 09:36 pm UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]rlbell, 2009-06-08 03:06 am UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]m_francis, 2009-06-07 11:54 pm UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]eonomine88, 2009-06-07 08:45 pm UTC
When a daddy universe and a mommy universe love each other very, very much... - [info]deiseach, 2009-06-08 03:42 pm UTC
Re: When universes start having sex... - [info]m_francis, 2009-06-07 11:55 pm UTC
Limits to knowledge? - [info]deiseach, 2009-06-08 11:37 am UTC
Re: Limits to knowledge? - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-08 04:22 pm UTC
I salute your optimism - [info]deiseach, 2009-06-09 01:06 pm UTC
questions
[info]zatarchan
2009-06-06 01:04 am UTC (link)
There were a couple of questions/problems I had about this argument, mostly in regards to the "obscure case." First, I don't see why, even accepting the universality of entropy, we have to assume an unending regression of older continuum - or rather I don't see why that is a fundamental problem. Let's say there was one such older continuum; is there any reason that it couldn't be organized on something like the Hindu version of history? That is, in said continuum gravity is powerful enough to eventually overcome the expansion of space, pulling everything (including all escaped energy, thus getting around the problem of entropy) back together to a single point which then, for whatever reason, explodes again. This higher continuum is in an eternal cycle of life, death, and rebirth, as it were. There was no beginning to this cycle - it has always occured.

Next, in regards to the issue of time beginning with the Big Bang, and the paradox this creates for the higher continuum argument, again I don't really see the problem. What scientists mean (as I understand it) when they talk about time beginning with the Big Bang is basically that all observable space-time was in what we currently view as the universe was created then. But that's only space-time for this universe/continuum. Why is it so illogical/difficult to believe that a "higher" continuum, with exactly the same (or very similar) type of space-time created ours, perhaps in some form of scientific expierment. Indeed, I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading that current theories of Higg's Bosuns (a theoretical partical that hasn't yet been created but (if the theory is true) could be with existing technology if a somewhat bigger supercollider was built) indicates that in creating a Higg's Bosun one might be creating an enitre universe which from our perspective would last fractions of a second but from the "inside" perspective would last from Big Bang to entropic collapse over the entire natural span of a universe/continuum. Why couldn't our universe have been likewise created?

I grant, these theories aren't exactly EASY to believe, but they have the (from a scientific perspective) advantage of being completely natural, and don't seem all that absurd/illogical. Am I missing something here?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: questions
[info]robert_mitchell
2009-06-06 02:01 am UTC (link)
They are Easy to believe, they just don't make sense if you think about them. The "Big Bang, Big Crunch" theory is pointless or goes against everything we know about physics (It's perpetual motion on an universal scale! Now it will work!). It all comes back to perpetual motion, and when you talk about an "Endless cycle of life, death, and rebirth", that's what you are talking about. Perpetual motion is easy to believe in, and had ruined lives because there is something in the human soul which does not believe entropy will win. Not a problem for those who believe in God, but quite the problem for those who are "rational". Your theories are more absurd then the Christian postulate, because they have one miracle (God created the Universe) and you have an endless amount of them (The Universe came from nothing, and then perfectly recreates itself without aid or loss, endlessly, in direct contradiction of what we have observed).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: questions - [info]zatarchan, 2009-06-06 03:06 am UTC
Re: questions - [info]robert_mitchell, 2009-06-06 03:24 am UTC
Re: questions - [info]zatarchan, 2009-06-06 03:45 am UTC
Re: questions - [info]robert_mitchell, 2009-06-06 04:32 am UTC
Re: questions - [info]zatarchan, 2009-06-07 12:01 am UTC
Re: questions - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 03:14 pm UTC
Re: questions - [info]zatarchan, 2009-06-08 01:41 am UTC
Re: questions - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-08 01:43 am UTC
Re: questions
[info]rlbell
2009-06-06 03:35 am UTC (link)
The illogic of believing in the multiverse comes from the evidence supporting it.

Not only is there no evidence. The distinct nature of each element of the multiverse predicts that there can be no evidence.

The whole point of the exercise seems to be a way to deny the existence of a singular creation event and its inferred creator.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]deiseach
2009-06-06 01:38 am UTC (link)
"If, as modern science says, the Big Bang created timespace, then not only was there nothing "before" the Big Bang, the phrase "Before the Big Bang" has no meaning, no more than the phrase "further north than the North Pole" has meaning."

I have heard a physicist say that the question "What was there before the Big Bang?" is meaningless, since (by definition) there was no time until it happened, therefore there was no such thing as "before".

It still doesn't tell me where this eruption of energy came out of to cause creation, but that's explained/explained away as being meaningless also; the same way there was no time, and hence no 'before', and hence it is meaningless to ask a question about 'before', then since there wasn't anything, there's no point asking where that came from.

At least, I *think* that's how it goes?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]robert_mitchell
2009-06-06 02:05 am UTC (link)
Some words are missing, but yes. What your physicist is saying is the question is meaningless as a scientific question, for it cannot be answered by science, which requires cause and effect, which requires time. It translates well as "Not my pay grade".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2009-06-06 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kgbman, 2009-06-06 03:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maradydd, 2009-06-06 04:13 am UTC
Better tell the cosmologists, so - [info]deiseach, 2009-06-06 09:58 am UTC
Re: Better tell the cosmologists, so - [info]headnoises, 2009-06-06 05:10 pm UTC

[info]marycatelli
2009-06-06 04:11 am UTC (link)
Yup.

Same sort of conclusion Augustine came to meditating on Genesis. That Genesis spoke of the "first day" because it really was the first day -- time had been created then, and therefore there had been no days before then.

Indeed, he observed that when the world was "without form and void", there had been no change (change is a change in form, and therefore requires form) and therefore no time. Change, and so time, commenced with separating light from darkness, which meant there were things to change.

Metaphorically. Augustine did not regard the opening of Genesis as literal.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]maradydd
2009-06-06 03:59 am UTC (link)
I wish I had known you when I was teaching complexity and computability theory; I would have tried to get you to give an invited lecture.

(Reply to this)


[info]m_francis
2009-06-06 05:40 pm UTC (link)
You should find this essay interesting:
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php?year=2007&month=10&title_link=006-the-fire-in-the-equations-13

In addressing whether the emergence of the Big Bang from a particle-less quantum state is creation "ex nihilo", Barr writes:
A quantum state without any particles or even without any “universes” is not nothing --it is a quantum state.
+ + +

Raindrops fall because gravity acts on them, not because they are hungry for the ground and dive toward it, laughing.


Damn.
+ + +

Einstein
Formerly, people thought that if matter disappeared from the universe, space and time would remain. Relativity declares that space and time would disappear with matter.

Augustine of Hippo
With the motion of creatures, time began to run its course. It is idle to look for time before creation, as if time can be found before time.
De genesi ad litteram, Book V, Ch. 5:12

Or as Aquinas put it in distinguishing time from eternity, "time is the measure of motion [change] in corruptible being." Without such being - i.e., matter/energy - there is no time. Eternity, which is changeless, is therefore not simply "a really, really long time" but a completely different sort of duration. Your example of 2+2=4 is a nice example of this, so long as readers do not confuse the truth with the symbols used. II et II est IV is equally true.

However, causal chains need not be time seqences. Aquinas believed time was finite, but did not assume so in his proofs.

Consider Plato's Foot. Suppose there is a sandy beach that has always existed. And suppose there is a Foot that has always existed, and that this Foot has always pressed into the Sand. Beneath the Foot, there is the Footprint. The Footprint, too, has always been. Yet the Foot is the efficient cause of the Footprint even though it did not come before the Footprint. In fact, in the Aristotelian sense, "essential causes" and their effects are always simultaneous, not before-and-after.

This is why Georges Lemaitre, he whom Hoyle mocked as "the big bang man," once took the Pope to task for saying that the Big Bang was the same as creation.
+ + +

I strongly suspect thermodynamics to be part of that supra-physics, because it is extremely difficult to conceive of a Universe not operating according to some version of the Laws of Thermodynamics.


But this may be no more than a failure of imagination, much as when a creationist says that he cannot "conceive" [usually meaning "imagine"] how mutation and natural selection can lead to a new species.

+ + +
Richard Dawkins says, if God created us, who created God? and who created the God who created God? and so forth, and thinks that's very cleverly disposing of God.

Indeed. A causal chain must terminate, not because time is finite, but because something must exist essentially for anything else to exist accidentally. As Aristotle put it:
After these thinkers and the discovery of these [material] causes, since they were insufficient to account for the generation of the actual world, men were again compelled (as we have said) by truth itself to investigate the next first principle. For presumably it is unnatural that either fire or earth or any other such element should cause existing things to be or become well and beautifully disposed; or indeed that those thinkers should hold such a view. Nor again was it satisfactory to commit so important a matter to spontaneity and chance. Hence when someone said that there is Mind in nature, just as in animals, and that this is the cause of all order and arrangement, he seemed like a sane man in contrast with the haphazard statements of his predecessors
-- The Metaphysics, 984b


Any being which is the source of its own existence would be Being Itself. We would have to call it "It IS" and if it could speak it would say "I AM."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jordan179
2009-06-06 07:24 pm UTC (link)
Any being which is the source of its own existence would be Being Itself. We would have to call it "It IS" and if it could speak it would say "I AM."

But there would be absolutely no reason for any such being to be sapient, and still less for it to care about the minutae of life at our level. We'd be its intestinal flora.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]m_francis, 2009-06-06 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-07 03:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-07 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 09:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-08 01:42 am UTC
We seem to care about our intestinal flora - [info]deiseach, 2009-06-07 09:29 pm UTC
Re: We seem to care about our intestinal flora - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 09:45 pm UTC
A very basic reason for "Why should It care?" - [info]deiseach, 2009-06-08 11:27 am UTC
Re: A very basic reason for "Why should It care?" - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-08 03:19 pm UTC

[info]dirigibletrance
2009-06-06 09:25 pm UTC (link)
I like the term "alternate material plane", and that's probably more accurate and more in line with what you're saying, rather than other universes. Plus, it's a D&D term and therefore wins.

Of course, I'm so used to seeing the term Multiverse (since it crops up alot in Marvel comics) that it really doesn't bother me.

Is there anything wrong with "shadows", as in Amber? Certainly, the entirety of the cosmos in Amber was recognized as being one whole place by the Amberites and Chaos beings, with the Pattern and Logrus as two "poles" of the universe. They understood the Shadows to be locations in physical space, nearer or farther to one or the other. I remember they used the term multiverse, but it was understood, I thought, to be an intentional simplification for ease of speech.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]marycatelli
2009-06-07 03:06 am UTC (link)
"Shadows" implied they are shadows of something.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-06-07 04:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2009-06-07 10:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-06-07 03:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-07 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2009-06-07 10:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-07 07:47 pm UTC
Universes and Multiverses
[info]jordan179
2009-06-07 03:32 pm UTC (link)
He is talking about the possibility that, while there may be minor differences of conditions there, or even major differences in things we (incorrectly) once called laws of nature before the other continuum was discovered, the other continuum is a natural world and operates by the laws of nature.

Exactly. If we discovered another Universe with different laws of Nature, we would immediately see that both sets of laws were subsets of a larger set of laws embracing both Universes (and probably many more). Our task would then be to learn this larger set of laws, rather than collapsing in superstitious awe at how big reality was turning out to be.

Unfortunately, the speculative base for multiple worlds is insufficiently rigorous to erect a defensible conclusion on top of it.

True -- as is the speculative base for Creators. We know very little of what happened at the instant the Universe was born -- it emerged from a singularity, and we don't know what happens inside singularities.

Anyone and anything governed solely by the laws of nature, the real and universal laws of nature, is in the universe, which is to say, is in nature. By definition, anything outside, above, beyond, or axiomatic to the system of the universe, that is, superior to nature, is supernatural.

You're quite right in terms of the origin of the word "universe," but of course if we discovered more than one "universe," we would probably call the resultant reality a "multiverse," even though strictly speaking all the "universes" would logically be part of the same Universe and some other word (such as "miniverse" or "subuniverse") would make more linguistic sense to refer to the whole shebang. You're making a grave error if you imagine that linguistics trump reality -- all the "multiverse" would still be under Natural Law, simply a wider case of a Natural Law of which it turned out that our "subuniversal" physics was a special case.

(Reply to this)

D&D (Demiurges & Durations)
[info]jordan179
2009-06-07 03:40 pm UTC (link)
This distinction avoids much confusion in these arguments. I have heard, for example, theists argue that, given any number of possible worlds, there must therefore be one world occupied by a being of such immense power that he could create universes at his command. This argument is merely a confusion of words. You can call world-making creatures gods if you like, but they would be natural creatures bound by the laws of nature.

This is not what Christians mean when they talk about God, who is supernatural. A more apt and precise word for such a being would be "Demiurge,"


As far as I can see, that's the only kind of "gods" that are possible. A creature which was outside "Natural Law" would also be incapable of affecting our reality, since it would neither be touched by nor capable of touching things in our universe or multiverse. If it were unbound even by its own version of "natural law," then it couldn't exist, PERIOD, because the existence of a sapient pattern requires a substrate in which the pattern is made.

But if we agree that time itself began at that time, this introduces a fatal paradox the naturalist cannot explain. Indeed, even his language has no words for it, his system has no axioms for it.

Time is that condition where cause leads to effect. If cause and effect ran backward, time would run backward, and to us time would seem to be running forward, because the only thing the word "time" really means is the category of cause and effect. That twice two equals four, or that four is twice two, is not a relation of cause and effect, but of logical axiom and conclusion, and for this reason we notice that the truths of mathematics are eternal, that is, not of nor in time.

Hence, time itself cannot be an effect of a previous cause.


This is a problem only if you assume that there can only be one temporal dimension. If you assume multiple temporal dimensions, our Time could have unfolded from the Big Bang, while another Time dimension pertains between Universes.

Of necessity, any theory of a multiverse implies spatial and temporal dimensions not easily accessible from our universe.

By definition, no laws of nature can exist outside of the realm of timespace/matter-energy. Logic forbids that there be cause leading to effect when there is no time, and hence there can be no particular causes tied to particular effects, which is our definition of a law of nature.

Even if many parallel multiple continuums arose from that one Big Bang, and even if we are only aware of one narrow tube of timespace issuing from that moment of cosmic genesis, and even if any number of other tubes also issue from it, nevertheless, time began at that moment, which means, something happened that has no sufficient natural cause.


only if you assume only one temporal dimension.




(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: D&D (Demiurges & Durations)
[info]marycatelli
2009-06-07 07:46 pm UTC (link)
A creature which was outside "Natural Law" would also be incapable of affecting our reality, since it would neither be touched by nor capable of touching things in our universe or multiverse.

Balderdash!

Can you offer a single reason why it could not touch or be touched by our universe?

If it were unbound even by its own version of "natural law," then it couldn't exist, PERIOD, because the existence of a sapient pattern requires a substrate in which the pattern is made.

This is not a reason. Your assertion about a "substrate" is blind faith on your part.

And you have offered no reason why its own version of "natural law" (which we Christian call "Divine nature") would prevent its touching our universe.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D (Demiurges & Durations) - [info]misterpengo, 2009-06-07 08:09 pm UTC
Re: D&D (Demiurges & Durations) - [info]jordan179, 2009-06-07 09:40 pm UTC
Re: D&D (Demiurges & Durations) - [info]misterpengo, 2009-06-07 10:24 pm UTC
Re: D&D (Demiurges & Durations) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-06-08 01:34 am UTC
After the Flaw Is Over
[info]jordan179
2009-06-07 03:48 pm UTC (link)
It is really so much simpler to believe in an infinite regress of othertime somewhere in non-timespace than to believe this creation had a creator? Really?

Yes, it really is. An infinite regress of othertime violates no laws of logic (or even of mathematics, really -- infinities have been dealt with mathematically since the 19th century), while the existence of entities which somehow function without the support of any natural law and are capable of self-contradiction does.

The fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that you are assuming that the Universe must have either come from nothing or from a sapient and will-possessing Creator. But many things within the Universe (stars, planets, geological formations, species) of considerable complexity evolve naturally from pre-existing things according to the operation of natural laws. All it takes to assume that our universe did the same is to assume the existence of pre-existing universes.

If there are pre-existing universes, then obviously there must be spatial and temporal dimensions which do not openly manifest in this Universe (because we know that our kind of Time unfolded from the Big Bang). This makes sense given known physics -- Einstein's theory permits both FTL and time travel under certain circumstances, and some sort of "meta-temporal" dimension must exist or such time travel could create paradox.

You're building a huge castle in the air out of denying the possibility of anything existing outside our spacetime, rather similar to that of the Medievals who assumed that nothing "mundane" could exist beyond the Earth's atmosphere.

I apologize if I'm being offensively blunt here: I respect you tremendously both as a writer and as a man, but I'm an honest person.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: After the Flaw Is Over
[info]misterpengo
2009-06-07 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Well, we know that 'sapient and will-possessing' creators - we limited humans - are certainly capable of quite a lot of creation. We don't know that the "considerable complexity" that evolved "naturally" did or does so unaided by a 'sapient and will-possessing' creator. Even if we assume the dead mechanism of modern metaphysics, for all we know what we see is the outcome of an intended program.

But that's the problem. If we're going to be chided for 'denying possibilities', well - then let's entertain all possibilities, of which the importance of 'sapient, will-possessing' creators is a key consideration. Maybe we have an eternal regress of creators. Maybe there's just one creator. Maybe there's a multiverse, and that's created as well. Acknowledging this reduces the entire argument to a push from all sides - which is fine by me, frankly. Science won't solve what metaphysics explores.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: After the Flaw Is Over
[info]marycatelli
2009-06-07 07:33 pm UTC (link)
An infinite regress doesn't have to violate the laws of logic. At the moment, it looks to violate the observed facts of the universe.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: After the Flaw Is Over - [info]johncwright, 2009-07-14 08:54 pm UTC
Everything is natural except nature?
[info]joecool385
2009-06-10 06:24 pm UTC (link)
This subject borders on the edge of my comprehension, such that I have a hard time picturing it in my head. As such, I may not phrase what I am thinking clearly, because it isn't clear in my head, but I will do my best to ask my question.

As a pious believer, I agree with your arguments, but as a scientist, it causes me some trouble.

In studying God's creation, we look for natural causes for the things in nature. For instance, if I wish to understand why the leaves of trees turn brown in the autumn, I don't simply posit "God makes them so". While that is true, there is another, natural cause that I'm looking for. And if I concoct a theory to explain some behavior of nature, and my theory would mean that the leaves of the trees turn chartreuse and not brown, my explanation should not be "well, God turns them brown, despite the fact that naturally they would turn chartreuse." Instead, I throw out my theory.

What I do not understand is why I don't apply this natural causes approach at the universal scale. If my scientific, natural law of thermodynamics tells me perpetual motion is impossible, and that therefore the universe had a beginning, and that therefore something supernatural (outside of time) is required because cause and effect requires time, so nothing natural could cause time to begin, so therefore there is a supernatural force (let's call it "God") that brought the universe into existence, this seems to be the same "god of the gaps" theory as my "the leaves should turn chartreuse, but actually brown, so God must make them that way" idea.

Basically, how do I, Joe Church-going Scientist, know that I should seek natural causes for everything in the universe but the universe itself? If it's not logically impossible that the universe be infinite, should I not assume that it is, as it's a natural explanation that doesn't require resorting to incomprehensible supernatural forces? If the end result of the second law of thermodynamics requires me positing god, shouldn't I either toss it or modify it (perhaps it doesn't apply on the universal level) in the same way I toss my leaves-turn-chartreuse-in-the-autumn theory?

Or perhaps I have answered my own question? "Everything in nature is natural except nature itself?" But that seems an axiom to me, not a conclusion.

(Reply to this)


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