John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2009-07-09 13:19:00
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Every storm begins with a single drop of rain

Several nations in Europe are cowed by the threats and menace of the paynim, and are even now dhimmi in everything but name; Canada likewise, as the Mark Steyn case indicates. Radio talkshow hosts and Dutch PM's are barred from Great Britain. Statues of pigs and dogs are removed. The Muslims control who may enter the country, and what may be published or discussed in public. There have been small outbreaks of dhimmitude in America, but they are growing larger.

You see, it is as predictable as anything in this unpredictable world can be: Western culture may be devoted to religious freedom, but the counterculture (who now rule us) is devoted to freedom from Christianity, and tolerates only inoffensive and non-demanding beliefs, New Age blither, or theosophic or bogus versions of Oriental religions we might call McBuddhism. The hostility of the counterculture toward Christianity has become more open in recent years, but they have never pretended anything but contempt for the opiate of the masses.

Since the Mohammedans also wish to reduce the Christians to death or dhimmitude, they are the natural allies of the counterculture--despite that sexual liberated potheads, perverts, orgiasts, adulterers, panderers and pornographers (all the folk the Larry Flint generation calls heroes) are the first to be buried up the waist and pelted to death with stones under Sharia law. A chaste and temperate Christian or Jew runs afoul of no commandment of the Prophet, if he pay his dhimmi tax. In other words, the barbarians within the gates are the natural allies of the barbarians without the gates, before the gates are opened. And after?

I recall reading -- I cannot find the quote at the moment -- the account of a Christian lady from Lebannon, who before 1967, watched her parents and their friends urging the government to relax certain restrictions against Muslims in the name of social justice (only Maronitescould serve as commander or the army, for example, or head of the central bank), and once the Muslims had enough power and confidence, thanks in part to their help, these same compassionate  reformers were killed like dogs in the street, their bodies left unburied for the crows, because one infidel is no different from the next.

But that is the end of the process. Here is one more story from near the beginning. I make no pretense of vouching for it, aside from saying that I am not surprised. You may read and decide for yourself.

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/07/special-report-sharia-comes-to-dearborn.html

David Wood  says Christians were singled out for legal and illegal harassment at a public festival in Dearborn, Mich. He sums up:

We insisted on our Constitutional rights to (i) ask a question at a booth, and (ii) record in a public place. This was enough to get us banned from a public sidewalk in Dearborn, Michigan (the city with the highest percentage of Muslims in the U.S.). By comparison, the Muslim security guards openly harassed, intimidated, bullied, threatened, entrapped, and assaulted Christians; they openly proclaimed that they don’t care about our rights as American citizens; they used profanity as they insulted us; they lied to police. This behavior was perfectly welcome in Dearborn, even at a family festival! (There were other examples of open hatred as well.)

I have contacted the Arab Chamber of Commerce (the organization responsible for planning the festival, selecting the security team, and deciding that Christians are no longer free to distribute information in public places). I have asked for an apology and for their thoughts on how such horrendous treatment of Christians will be avoided in the future. They have not responded.

Going back to the time of Muhammad, whenever the population of Muslims becomes significant, followers of other religions are suppressed, and the proclamation of non-Muslim beliefs is forb

I am curious to hear from anyone on the Leftward side of the political spectrum what your plan is, what policy you suggest the West embrace, to deal with an implacable enemy?

Do you believe there is a peaceful means to reduce their threat? Do you think giving the Jihadists money, or power, or apologies, or giving them Isreal will placate them?

If that is the your belief, what is the basis for this belief? On what facts is it founded?

How would you defend this belief from a skeptic?

(Aside from an ad hominem attack, I mean. I am refering to a convincing defense, a defense on the merits, not a witticism mocking the intelligence or moral rectitude of the skeptic himself. Among grown-ups, discussions concern the subject matter of the discussion, and are therefore not merely background noise to a word-game of moral preening.) 



(62 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]prester_scott
2009-07-09 07:09 pm UTC (link)
The usual answer to questions like these is "Shut up."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]arhyalon
2009-07-10 11:39 am UTC (link)
Does that solve the problem?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]prester_scott, 2009-07-10 01:01 pm UTC
'Shut Up' he Explained
[info]johncwright
2009-07-10 01:07 pm UTC (link)
Here is the valuable Andrew Klavan agreeing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: 'Shut Up' he Explained - [info]prester_scott, 2009-07-10 01:08 pm UTC

[info]ilion7
2009-07-10 03:20 pm UTC (link)
"The usual answer to questions like these is "Shut up.""

And it is not merely an answer, but the all-inclusive explanation, as in: "'Shut up!' he explained."

(Reply to this) (Parent)

A Suggestion from a Medievalist
[info]coheleth
2009-07-09 07:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, God knows I'm not of the Left, but for what it's worth here's my two cents.

Islam reads like a sixth-century version of scientology: it purports to relate a secret history that has been all but forgotten due to a grand conspiracy of power hungry warlords, wicked priests, and dishonest scribes. By reading the Quran, we learn that the New Testament was largely forged and the Old deliberately tampered with in myriad places. To discover the real story of what actually went down, we are to rely on a lusty prophet and his channeled angel guide, "Gabriel," who tells us among other things that Ishmael did all the things Isaac was purported to have done, Mary gave birth alone under a fig tree, God is the great deceiver/schemer (Father of lies? Oooo...let's not go there with our Muslim friends...), and prostitution is cool (well, that statement was later retracted, much like Joseph Smith's opinion on polygamy was).

So, my vote is to only extend religious liberty to those religions not based on some grand conspiracy theory--or else if they are predicated on a big coverup, then at least let them be wholeheartedly dedicated to absolute pacifism with a track record to prove it--and outlaw all the rest as dangerous cults, expelling them from our presence with deadly force if necessary. That means Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc... can stay, and Satanists, Mohammedans (ooo...I used a dirty word), Scientologists, JW's, some Mormons, and whoever else fits the "long ago and far away, someone covered up the TRUTH which can now be yours for $19.95 or the foreskins of your inlaws" bill either gets expelled voluntarily or else gets hunted down like dogs and expelled mandatorily.

I know, I know, I sound insane. But before you reject my proposal, please keep in mind that it would get rid of Oprah for good. If that's not enough to sell you on it, I'm not sure what else to say. This is a united front we can all stand on.

(Reply to this)


[info]maradydd
2009-07-09 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I shall answer the question that you pose to the Left, although I do not consider myself to be on the leftward side of the political spectrum; several of the epithets that you apply to the "counterculture" apply to me, so I figure it's worth a stab.

First of all, I do not consider myself a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination. When confronted with force, I will if necessary defend myself, my family, my friends and my property with force -- lethal if it comes to that, though it never has and I hope it never does. Mr. Wood is to be commended for getting his party out of that situation with none of them harmed -- it sounds like they were facing overwhelming, hostile odds. His recourse now is in the U.S. courts, and I hope that the security guards are prosecuted for assault and the festival organizers (and, if necessary, local police) hit hard in the pocketbook, where it counts. Discrimination is not an American value, and physical force used to intimidate in the name of discrimination is assault. If I had any truck with the notion of "hate crimes", I would describe what happened to Mr. Wood and his companions as such. It would be entirely reasonable for the town of Dearborn to refuse to grant any further festival permits to this organization, and to levy a steep fine.

As John Philpot Curran had it:
It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.
By no means do I accuse Mr. Wood or his companions of indolence; however, a little indolence on the part of many can do much to thwart the vigilance of a few.

As for the global stage, I have been thrilled beyond words to observe the current events in Iran. Make no mistake, this is a revolution on par with that of 1776: the people of Iran refuse to accept a government which does not represent them, and they are rebelling with all the tools available to them. (I applauded when I heard that Twitter had delayed a maintenance window that would have taken their service down for twelve hours during the initial ramp-up of civil disobedience.) As an academic privacy researcher, I contribute to the development of tools which make it easier for people to communicate securely with the outside world even under surveillance and firewalls; it disappoints me that the U.S. government, despite its rich technological resources, has as yet been unwilling to do more than make empty statements about "supporting fair elections in Iran". We could have that firewall down already; the Tor network would benefit enormously from the sort of injection of bandwidth that the U.S. military could provide; but no. They cannot even claim a non-interventionist strategy, with all the soldiers still in Iraq and Afghanistan. It really is shameful.

In general I am not in favour of giving money, power, guns or land to any faction in the name of propping up or overthrowing anyone, though for rather pessimistic reasons: we have an awfully bad track record as far as who we choose as the recipients. Nor am I an appeasenik of any stripe. Mostly I just want to be left alone, to practice my faith, raise my family and live among my neighbours in quiet contentment. For anyone who wishes to interfere with that by force, I have a 12-gauge.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mentalguy
2009-07-10 12:52 am UTC (link)

By no means do I accuse Mr. Wood or his companions of indolence; however, a little indolence on the part of many can do much to thwart the vigilance of a few.

Precisely. We cannot afford to be doormats.

it disappoints me that the U.S. government, despite its rich technological resources, has as yet been unwilling to do more than make empty statements about "supporting fair elections in Iran"

The Iranian regime has used the US as a bogeyman to keep the populace in line for a long time, to the point that many Iranians are at least as afraid of the US as they are the Mullahs. As it is, the government is attempting to undermine support for the protestors by suggesting US involvement; I would be concerned about the possibility for actual US involvement to hurt more than it helps.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-07-10 02:31 am UTC

[info]howling_wolf
2009-07-10 01:52 am UTC (link)
"Make no mistake, this is a revolution on par with that of 1776: the people of Iran refuse to accept a government which does not represent them, and they are rebelling with all the tools available to them."

Unfortunately, by all accounts, the people who are refusing to accept the government that does not represent them account for a small minority confined to one particular class. The real battle is between clerical factions, neither of which will represent anything these people on the streets would want.

As for the leadership, those tickled pink by the prospect of a black president elected a leader with all the toughness of a neutered dog. This one won't fight.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]johncwright
2009-07-10 01:17 pm UTC (link)
"I shall answer the question that you pose to the Left..."

You wrote three or four paragraphs after this, and I do not understand how any of them answered, or even addressed, the questions asked.

1. What is your plan to deal with an implacable enemy?

2. Do you believe there is a peaceful means to reduce their threat?

3. Do you think giving the Jihadists money, or power, or apologies, or giving them Isreal will placate them?

4. What is the basis for this belief?

5. How would you defend this belief from a skeptic?

While it at first looked as if you might have addressed question 3 (Do you think giving the enemy money will placate them) in fact you did not. What you said was; "In general I am not in favour of giving money, power, guns or land to any faction in the name of propping up or overthrowing anyone, though for rather pessimistic reasons: we have an awfully bad track record as far as who we choose as the recipients."

Or, in other words, when asked if paying the Danegeld to the Jihad to leave us alone, all you said was that you were opposed in general to all foreign aid, on that grounds that we choose to back the wrong parties. So you are not even talking about the same topic as the questions. In effect, when asked, will giving Iran money stop them from nuking New York, you answered that we should not give money to Yugoslavia.

"Mostly I just want to be left alone, to practice my faith, raise my family and live among my neighbours in quiet contentment. For anyone who wishes to interfere with that by force, I have a 12-gauge."

That is a paramount American value that I think both Right and Left, Up and Down can agree with. (Up meaning Libertarians, and Down meaning Totalitarians).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]maradydd, 2009-07-10 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-07-10 02:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maradydd, 2009-07-10 02:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-07-10 02:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-07-10 02:21 pm UTC
So no, not really peaceful at all - [info]johncwright, 2009-07-10 02:46 pm UTC
Re: So no, not really peaceful at all - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-07-10 02:56 pm UTC

[info]juliet_winters
2009-07-09 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Are you familiar with a publication called Voice of the Martyrs?

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[info]juliet_winters
2009-07-09 07:50 pm UTC (link)
http://www.persecution.com/

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]baduin
2009-07-09 08:27 pm UTC (link)
I consider all those anti-Islamic diatribes to be rather uninteresting. Yes, Islam is bad. It is also mostly harmless - they would do a lot of wrong, but they are powerless. It is the West which conquered Baghdad, not the other way round.

What is interesting is why the Western elites invite Muslims. And it is not mere stupidity. The western elites are rather remarkably efficient. Their control over population is unparalelled in the history of the world. It is enough to mention the abolition of marriage and family - even Communists didn't dare to try that.

So, let's consider this from a point of view of population control. There is of course also an ideological background, which makes the elites feel righteous and enlightened, and populace to be ashamed of their own homophoby.I wrote about that earlier, and won't elaborae this further here.

But what is the benefit from the point of view of perpetuating the elite rule:
- a reason to increase the control over population, both Muslim terrorists, and redneck Islamophobes.
- a perfect argument to exclude from the polite company all racist anti-islamists = push them out from politics and slander them in mass-media.
- cheap workers and servants;
- reliable voters.
- increase conflict between different sectors of populace, on the divide and impera principle.
- and, since the Muslim countries will have to be conquered anyway, it is best to get accustomed to living in the same polity with Muslims.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]marycatelli
2009-07-09 08:36 pm UTC (link)
The question is not who conquered Baghdad, but who's conquering Dearborn.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]baduin, 2009-07-09 08:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-07-10 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-07-10 01:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-07-10 03:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2009-07-11 07:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-07-11 01:10 pm UTC

[info]baduin
2009-07-09 08:40 pm UTC (link)
BTW, I forgot the most important point. Arabs are noticeably less intelligent than Europeans and Americans. This means they do not threaten the intellectual elite.

This is actually a side benefit of a lot of apparently stupid policies. They are promoting women, minorities (less intelligent) and Jews (if they need promoting at all) in eg Harvard.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/gegx41lw3rgbaflk/

http://www.onenation.org/1198/111698b.html
Ron K. Unz Wall Street Journal
Monday, November 16, 1998.
"In fact, it seems likely that non-Jewish white Americans represent no more than a quarter of Harvard undergraduates, even though this group constitutes nearly 75% of the population at large, resulting in a degree of underrepresentation far more severe than that of blacks, Hispanics or any other minority groups.

Furthermore, even among non-Jewish whites there is almost certainly a severe skew in representation, with Northeastern WASPs being far better represented than other demographic or religious groups such as Baptists or Southerners. (It's hard to know for sure, since Harvard doesn't release breakdowns of the student body by religion.) "

Jews are an outlier here - they are markedly more intelligent, but with limited political opportunities. No Jew will be a President, and for that reason they can safely play the role of Phanariotes.

This all has the end result of limiting the numbers of the most dangerous competitors for power - white men. And power is a zero-sum game, or even a negative sum game. As unification of the West progresses, the number of slots at the top grows ever smaller.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jordan179
2009-07-10 12:15 am UTC (link)
Yes, Islam is bad. It is also mostly harmless - they would do a lot of wrong, but they are powerless. It is the West which conquered Baghdad, not the other way round.

Yet it is the Muslims who are conquering Brussels, not the Europeans who are conquering Mecca. Ask the growing number of rape victims in Europe how "mostly harmless" is Islam.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mentalguy
2009-07-10 12:37 am UTC (link)
Baghdad might be a bad example. At least prior to Saddam's overthrow, Iraq was probably the most secular Arab state.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bibliophile112, 2009-07-10 03:39 am UTC

[info]arhyalon
2009-07-10 11:40 am UTC (link)
We may have beaten up Bagdad (not conquored because that requires staying) but they are winning England.

Not sure that's a fair trade. ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Not dangerous?
[info]anaxagoras81
2009-07-09 09:26 pm UTC (link)
"I consider all those anti-Islamic diatribes to be rather uninteresting. Yes, Islam is bad. It is also mostly harmless - they would do a lot of wrong, but they are powerless. It is the West which conquered Baghdad, not the other way round."

I nearly spit my soda all over my screen when I read this. Seriously? How did they get Baghdad in the first place? Have you forgotten that Mohammedans conquered 2/3 to 3/4 of all Christian lands before the First Crusade? Sure, they don't have the military power to conquer Europe or America presently, but there's more to being dangerous than the number of cruise missiles and tanks you own.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Not dangerous?
[info]baduin
2009-07-09 09:52 pm UTC (link)
They got Bagdhad by founding it. In 762, by the caliph Abu Ja'far Al-Mansur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad

It is near the old Persian (Zoroastrian) capitol of Ctesiphon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesiphon

Earlier there was Babylon, and earlier still Akkad. This is a place with a long history.

The Arab conquest in VII century were impressive. Now we have XXI century. Tempus fugit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Not dangerous? - [info]m_francis, 2009-07-10 02:13 am UTC
Re: Not dangerous? - [info]luckymarty, 2009-07-10 03:13 pm UTC
Re: Not dangerous?
[info]m_francis
2009-07-09 10:32 pm UTC (link)
There are numbers, for example.

However, most muslims simply want to be left alone, too. And rightly or wrongly, they believe they have not been, at least in the past 100 years or so. Their great catastrophe was the abolition of the Caliphate by the apostate Turkish secularists.

Hilaire Belloc had this to say: http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT
It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent.

I say the suggestion that Islam may re-arise sounds fantastic_but
this is only because men are always powerfully affected by the immediate
past:_one might say that they are blinded by it.


He wrote this in 1938, when 4 of every 5 muslims lived under British or French rule.

Bernard Lewis writes of a conversation in a Beirut coffee shop. The local Arabs told him, "We outlasted the Crusaders, we outlasted the Turks, we outlasted the British. We will outlast the Israelis." Lewis' answer was, "The Turks got rid of the Crusaders; the British got rid of the Turks; the Israelis got rid of the British. Who do you expect to get rid of the Israelis?"




(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Not dangerous? - [info]howling_wolf, 2009-07-10 01:56 am UTC
Re: Not dangerous? - [info]arhyalon, 2009-07-10 11:44 am UTC

[info]genesiscount
2009-07-10 12:50 am UTC (link)
Not really being leftist this answer may be invalid, but my guess is that the likely answer would be as follows. My presumption here is of a sane, highly idealistic person who believes several things I consider incorrect, but who does not have to be presumed to be either stupid or brainwashed to do so.

This hypothetical sane and honest Leftist might simply claim that the problem is just not as acute as the more fearful might want to paint it, bringing up a couple of points that seem not unreasonable:

- Due to basic human apathy the jihadists will never be more than a minority within Islam; more importantly, it seems very unlikely they will ever be a *unified* force. Jihadist organizations have a demonstrable inability to keep from turning on each other or on their own host populations and governments (Islam's fundamental disunity as a religion being a significant factor here). There is no Saladin in today's Muslim world, nor any new prospective Caliph on the horizon, and the likelihood of either arising soon seems remote.

- Moreover, it seems unlikely that Islam will be immune to the near-universal downward demographic trend of wealthy societies; as Muslim societies grow wealthier their birth rates will fall just as Western society's has fallen, and the expected demographic "swamping" is not likely to occur. Historically, religious fanaticism has seldom coexisted with significant wealth and luxury, and Wahhabi jihadism (a movement only decades old, after all, and born out of a post-Ottoman collapse from the reactionary ravings of an anti-American cleric) is likely to lose its appeal as social stability and security expands. Fanatical movements within religions are nothing new; yes, some have turned the world upside down, but the catastrophes are outnumbered by the historical ashheaps.

The leftist, in essence, I think is not so much likely to propose a solution to the threat as simply to argue that the threat is nowhere near as dangerous as believed, and therefore safely ignoreable. While there may be truth to this idea of overstatement, I think it betrays the leftist tendency to aggregate, dehumanized thinking: any damage less than nuclear war is "safely" ignoreable... especially if the people harmed all work in a high-finance tower in New York.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The Seldon Plan
[info]johncwright
2009-07-10 01:34 pm UTC (link)
"The leftist, in essence, I think is not so much likely to propose a solution to the threat as simply to argue that the threat is nowhere near as dangerous as believed"

This is my conclusion as well. I am by no means an expert on sinistropsychology (the science that studies the mental processes of the Left) but their overall world-view does not seem to admit of the possibility that enemies actually exist, much less implacable enemies.

1. What is your plan to deal with an implacable enemy? Ignore them.

2. Do you believe there is a peaceful means to reduce their threat? Yes; treat them with courtesy, and wait with folded hands for the psychohistorical Seldon Plan to eliminate the threat.

3. Do you think giving the Jihadists money, or power, or apologies, or giving them Isreal will placate them? Not necessarily, but if the Jihad can be placated long enough for the Seldon Plan to eliminate the threat, that is the strategy with maximum benefit and minimum cost.

4. What is the basis for this belief? No answer.

5. How would you defend this belief from a skeptic? No answer.

Which would all be fine answers, if there were such a thing as the Seldon Plan, and if in fact the Second Foundation had actually predicted the downfall of the Jihad. Instead Mark Steyn, amateur Psychohistorian, has extrapolated demographic numbers, and come to the opposite conclusion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mentalguy
2009-07-10 01:01 am UTC (link)

Do you believe there is a peaceful means to reduce their threat?

It is a partial answer, but what do you make of this?

(Reply to this)


[info]adt6247
2009-07-10 11:04 am UTC (link)
One of the many reasons why religious pluralism is stupid. The more credible religions all preach some variant of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. As such, it is naturally desirable by its adherents to use the power of the state to prop up that faith. Were I a Christian living in a Mohammedan state, I'd leave, period, unless I thought I had a chance of changing that fact.

Traditionally, most Catholic states were livable for non-Catholics -- heretic and heathen churches were tolerated so long as they posed no immediate threat to the state or the church. Sure, only Catholics could serve in public life. Contrary to popular belief, the Holy Inquisition had no authority over non-Catholics.

Pluralism doesn't work, because zealous religious men wish to be part of public life, and thus wish to use the power of the state towards the goals of that faith, whether that be subjugation of the world or the salvation of souls. Also, in modern times, it does not take into account ideologies that are in effect indistinguishable than religion, such as radical environmentalism, radical feminism, etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]marycatelli
2009-07-10 02:26 pm UTC (link)
Men wish to be part of public life, and thus wish to use the power of the state towards their goals.

This is not a religious peculiarity.

They are, of course, prone to the myopia which recognizes only other people's beliefs as beliefs, their own being facts and the laws of the universe, but that, also, is not a religious peculiarity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]adt6247, 2009-07-10 03:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-07-10 03:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adt6247, 2009-07-10 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marycatelli, 2009-07-11 01:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maradydd, 2009-07-10 03:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_francis, 2009-07-10 04:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adt6247, 2009-07-10 06:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-07-10 02:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adt6247, 2009-07-10 02:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-07-10 03:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adt6247, 2009-07-10 03:36 pm UTC
Strange Bedfellows
[info]beastlysleeping
2009-07-13 09:26 am UTC (link)
I am afraid I cannot answer this question from "the Leftward side of the political spectrum" because I'm not actually a Leftist. I was, however, raised in a Leftist household in the Leftist city of San Francisco, and I feel I have a certain native familiarity with Leftist thinking.

For Leftists, this is not a matter of how Western civilization should deal with an implacable foe; it's about the perennial struggle for power between the oppressor and the oppressed. Leftist thought is built on Marxist foundations, even if most Leftists don't consciously consider themselves full-on Socialists.

The core Leftists (the ones who actually understand all the implications of their Leftist values, and who actively promote what you might call Liberal policies and activities) *are* Socialists. They believe in the desirability and inevitability of a worldwide worker's revolution that will rebuild civilization on Marxist principles, leading to a dictatorship of the proletariat and, eventually, an anarchosyndicalist utopia. Well, some of them believe in that, and others are involved in the movement for reasons of personal gain or an as-yet-unfulfilled desire to beat up their parents.

For these core Leftists, Muslims are a useful tool for destabilizing Western civilization. Why do they want to destabilize it? So that it will be that much easier to topple in the great revolution. Socialists excel at pitting people against one another. They intend to divide our society along lines of gender, race, age, class, creed, color, language, sexual preference, and pretty much anything else they can think of. Any wedge is good enough to drive between neighbors and fellow-citizens, if it weakens the current capitalist system. Since America is still a pretty solidly Christian nation, and since most of our strength and unity is rooted in our faith, they (rightly) see Christianity as something that must be attacked and uprooted if the revolution is to see its glorious fulfillment.

When the Muslims have served their purpose, their religion, too, will be attacked in much the same way. The Marxist goal is a worldwide dictatorship of the proletariat, and the Muslim world is next, once the Western world has finished falling.

That's how the core Leftists think. They don't see Jihadist Islam as a threat to them; they see it as one more weapon to use in the fight against Capitalism. They know that once they have taken the helm of the Western world, the Jihadists will not stand a chance against them, since they will be wielding the technological and military might of Western civilization with a ruthless fanaticism to match that of the fiercest and most militant mullah. Plus, the Commies are better-organized than the Muslims have ever been. If anything, the relevant question here is not "What do the Lefties intend to do once Western civilization has fallen to Jihadist Islam?" but rather "Who do the Muslims think will protect their faith once Christendom has fallen to the Marxists?"

As for the Leftists who are not full Socialists, their views on most things are matters of sentiment, and not rational thought. They are the "useful fools" who will help bring about the revolution and disappear conveniently when they cease to be useful.

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Re: Strange Bedfellows
[info]johncwright
2009-07-13 08:15 pm UTC (link)
"For Leftists, this is not a matter of how Western civilization should deal with an implacable foe; it's about the perennial struggle for power between the oppressor and the oppressed. Leftist thought is built on Marxist foundations, even if most Leftists don't consciously consider themselves full-on Socialists."

This agrees with my conclusions also. The reason why the Leftists can only answer the question "What do you do about enemies?" with a owlish blink of confusion "Enemies? What enemies?" is that the idea that people might hate us for reasons other than motives of economic social injustice does not leave any mark on their thinking, no matter how deeply the facts are impressed.

"As for the Leftists who are not full Socialists, their views on most things are matters of sentiment, and not rational thought. They are the "useful fools" who will help bring about the revolution and disappear conveniently when they cease to be useful."

This agrees with my thought also.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Strange Bedfellows - [info]beastlysleeping, 2009-07-13 10:28 pm UTC
Re: Strange Bedfellows - [info]beastlysleeping, 2009-07-14 09:17 am UTC
D'oh!
[info]beastlysleeping
2009-07-14 09:18 am UTC (link)
Double (well, now triple) post. Livejournal noob. 8P

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