John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2009-09-11 12:11:00
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SEHNSUCHT, AUTUMN SUNSETS, AND PSYCHOLOGICAL COMFORT
This is what I would have posted had I been doing a daily post, but since I have two books or more overdue at the publisher’s, not to mention working a day job, I can only summarize.

So just imagine the following points were explored, dwelt upon, and ranted about for several pages, perhaps illuminated with video clips of Hammer’s SHE or Fogley’s GIRL GENIUS, and seasoned with really long and obscure words (words like ‘nuncupatory’ – a Jack Vancean word, and ‘cyclopean’ – a H.P. Lovecraftian word in more ways than one, and ‘urticate, salpinx, bordereau’ – words so remarkably Gene Wolflike in character, that they are as rare as an onager with a dulcimer).

Had I been writing in my Livejournal:
  • On Monday, I would have gotten into an argument with F.P.Barbieri. The topic would not matter: he and I are both argumentative.
  • On Tuesday, not wise enough to leave well enough alone, I would have discussed whether or not the word “pervert” or “deviant” were derogatory swearwords in the sense that the word “nigger” is derogatory. Naturally, like a good lawyer, I would have rested my case on controlling authority, that is, I would have resorted to quoting the dictionary. (Short version: “nigger” is noted as being perhaps the most offensive term of opprobrium in the English language, according to current use, whereas “pervert” is not: the term carries opprobrium, but because of the thought the word represents, not because the word itself is slang or swearing.) Quoting the dictionary seems (for some reason) not to convince those firmly wedded to the notion that words mean only what the listener wishes them to mean. The convenience of their posture for the rhetorical purpose of putting words into the speaker’s mouth cannot be over-estimated. And that is to their glory—and by “glory” I mean, there is a real knock-down argument for you.
  • On Wednesday, I would have written my long-ago promised review of the STAR TREK movie. Short version: the Spock-Uhura thing was fine with me; I liked the guy they picked to play young Bones McCoy; I thought the actors playing young Kirk, young Spock, and especially young Scotty did a splendid job; we got to see Sulu swordfighting; and the idea of doing a ‘reboot’ Marvel Ultimates style in a parallel timeline was sheer storytelling genius, for it shakes off the nickpickers and continuity hounds in one fell shrug. According to the “World Wrecker Hamilton” school of story telling, a space opera is not legit unless at least one planet is obliterated with a superweapon, and by that yardstick STAR TREK passes. Plusses? Half-naked green animal-woman from Orion. Also, no mention of money-free futuristic socialism. Minuses? Too much lens flare. Note to cameraman: shining lights in the camera does not add drama nor realism, it is just annoying. Also, not a single Space Princess. Things to make you go huhn? (1) Romulans who do not act or look like Romans In Space (which is their shtick) (2) Building a starship on the ground in Idaho, rather than in orbit.
  • On Thursday, discussing the significant-for-fifteen-minutes yet soon-to-be-forgotten topics of the daily news, I would have written about South Carolina Congressman Joe Wilson shouting “You Lie” during the State of the Union address. You know where I would have come down on this, dear readers. (1) Civility, and a certain degree of unity of mores and manners, is a necessary precondition for a republic to function. A monarchy, I suppose, can be catholic and multi-cultural; and if the monarch’s power is hemmed in by a strong aristocracy, an active and popular clergy, and a middle-class and local authority jealous of their natural rights and ancient prerogatives, I suppose you can have a polity that does not share a common language or a common set of morals and manners. (2) The president was indeed lying, and it is right that someone said so. I recall many lies from the Clinton years, but not about the content of a bill before Congress, which can be verified by examining the bill: the sheer audacity of the lie is what makes its astounding. (3) Equity allows his fellow Republicans to criticize the outburst, but if a Democrat voices discontent with incivility, either this proves that we do not live in a universe where a critical mass of pure hypocrisy causes spontaneous combustion and explosion of the skull, or, if we did live in such a universe, the nation’s capital would be strewn with blazing brain matter and skull fragments, and several important national monuments would be afire. An utter lack of shame and a total disregard of consistency is an important personality characteristic for the Progressive movement.

Let me dwell on point 3 by quoting Jay Nordlinger – while this may seem lengthy for a summary, but keep in mind cutting a pasting a few paragraphs only takes me a moment. (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzFiMWUxNjQ5NzI4YzhkM2I3NjY5NTk0YmNhYjg3YTI=):

“I predict that the chairman of the Republican National Committee will never say, “I hate the Democrats and everything they stand for. This [politics, basically] is a struggle of good and evil. And we’re the good.”

Howard Dean said that about the GOP: “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for. . . .”

I predict that an editor of a conservative magazine will never write a piece called “The Case for Obama Hatred,” beginning, “I hate President Barack Obama.”

A New Republic editor did this, about Bush.

And there is increasing worry about assassination: that someone will take a shot, not just at the president, but at the first black president, which would be extra-catastrophic for the country. A few protesters have carried signs urging violence against Obama, or smacking of violence.

Let me make some more predictions: I predict that a network talk-show host will not show a video of President Obama giving a speech and put the following words on the screen: “SNIPERS WANTED.”

Craig Kilborn of CBS did that to George W. Bush.

I predict that U.S. senators will not joke about killing Obama.

In 2006, Bill Maher had a conversation with John Kerry. He asked Kerry what he’d gotten his wife for her birthday. Kerry said he had treated her to a vacation in Vermont. Maher said, “You could have went to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone.” Kerry replied, “Or I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.”

This is the same Kerry who, in 1988, said, “Somebody told me the other day that the Secret Service has orders that if George Bush is shot, they’re to shoot Quayle.” Then he said, “There isn’t any press here, is there?”

I predict that a New York official will not tell a graduating class about assassinating President Obama.

Also in 2006, comptroller Alan Hevesi said to students at Queens College that Sen. Charles Schumer, his fellow Democrat, would “put a bullet between the president’s eyes if he could get away with it.”

I predict that no columnist for a leading European newspaper, and leading world newspaper, will write, “John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr. — where are you now that we need you?”

Charlie Brooker of the Guardian did that to George W. Bush.

I predict that no major writer will write a novel debating the morality of killing President Obama.

Nicholson Baker did that to Bush, with Checkpoint.

I predict that no filmmaker will make a “fictional documentary” that fantasizes — and I’m afraid that is the word — about murdering President Obama.

Some Brits did that to President Bush with Death of a President.

Dear readers, I have made very, very safe predictions. If a CBS talk-show host pictured President Obama and said “SNIPERS WANTED,” he would lose his job, of course. He would never work in the media again. I wonder what else would happen to him.”
That being said, however, the criticism of Joe Wilson for his breach of manners is still valid, no matter from what source it comes. The proper response to the President would have been to have Sarah Palin or Ann Coulter deliver the televised rebuttal rather than Charles Boustany, and to have her call Mr. Obama a liar in a polite and even-tempered tone of voice.

But I am not writing any of those editorials! Time does not permit!

But now that it is Friday, I can write a whole and lengthy editorial about, yes, my two favorite topics: SFF and PX! (No, I do not mean the Post Exchange, servicemen! That is a christogram rho chi, it merely looks like a Latin p and an x)

(For those of you interested in plays on words between the two alphabets, a friend of mine has the Greek word for virtue “Arête” written in capital letters on his auto license plate, where is spells APETH, like the thing an Elizabethian who apes something “he apeth my arête!”)

** ** **
SEHNSUCHT, AUTUMN SUNSETS, AND PSYCHOLOGICAL COMFORT
I was reading an article by Matt Cardin (http://theteemingbrain.wordpress.com/2006/10/30/autumn-longing-hp-lovecraft/) about Sehnsucht — that strange and elusive and poignant desire for the ineffable that such disparate personalities as H.P. Lovecraft or C.S. Lewis or Edgar Allen Poe are prone: in sunsets; in the distant sight of a vale of well-ordered farms in misty October mornings; in the peaks and cornices of stately architecture of edifices whose glass windows shine with red, reflected twilight; the haunted echoes of poems; there comes a longing for the joys of something beyond this world, in Elfland or in Heaven, or in some other life or dream-life.

Lovecraft wrote phantasy and horror, in part because that sense of otherworldliness is integral to supernatural horror, and exists in supernatural beauty as well. Lovecraft was an atheist, an lover of the antique, and a fabulist but Lewis, also a writer of fantasist and medievalist, found this Autumn longing leading him toward the Church.

The article did not mention Tolkien, but anyone familiar with his work, might note that his portrayal of his noble, doomed and melancholy elves were practically living personifications of the Autumnal longing for the Hither Shores, far (to borrow Lord Dunsany’s phrase) from the fields we know. No other portrayal of the inhabitors of the land of Faerie before Tolkien held this note of Sehnsucht, William Shakespeare’s Wood Near Athens where Oberon quarrels with Titania has nothing of this tragic sense of joy and loss, nor do warlike kings who dwell in the heaven of Mercury, the magician’s sphere, of E.R. Eddison’s THE WORM OROBOROS. The idea of elves as exiles, destined to dwindle and depart the shores of Middle-Earth was unique to Tolkien, and has a Roman Catholic sentiment: the words of the Salve Regina could have been sung by Celeborn or Galadriel: ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae (To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.)

Later, Lewis made the idea of the Autumn Longing of Sehnsucht part of his apologetic argument—

"Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for something else of which they are only a kind of a copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find till after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others to do the same."

"A man's physical hunger does not prove that the man will get any bread; he may die of starvation in a raft in the Atlantic. But surely a man s hunger does prove that he comes of a race which repairs its body by eating and inhabits a world where eatable substances exist. In the same way, though I do not believe (I wish I did) that my desire for Paradise proves that I shall enjoy it, I think it a pretty good indication that such a thing exists and that some men will. A man may love a woman and not win her; but it would be very odd if the phenomenon called falling in love occurred in a sexless world."

With all due respect to Mr. Lewis, and gratitude for his guiding lamp that led me out of the darkness of atheism, I must dismiss this argument as weak. Merely because a longing exists does not necessitate that a means exists to satisfy it.

Who has not longed to fly to the stars? What poet never dreamed to speak to the trees and rivers and hills, and learn their lore, or dance with the sun and moon, or wrap oneself in the shining galaxy as with a mantle, or peer into the thoughts of another, or live his life?

What robust man has not, if only briefly, entertained the longing to fight in the eternal melee of the never-slain in Valhalla, or possess the seventy-two glancing eyed houri of the paradise of Mohammed? What sage wearied with wisdom has not longed to quench his sorrows in the oblivion of Nirvana, and achieve unutterable Oneness? But these longings cannot be sated, even if one could chose somehow one's afterlife, for they are contrary to each other. There is no such thing as the Nirvana of Valhalla.

No, for my part, I can think of far too many longings I or others have never to be fulfilled to be comfortable with the conclusion that nature never implants vain longings in us.

One wag, commenting on the article, dismisses Lewis with that typical contempt one finds in minds who assume all opposition is illegitimate. He said: "I find it interesting that these C.S. Lewis types, after their so-called atheistic spiritual adventures, somehow manage to find their way home to the safety and security of their childhood Christian god. I’m sure it’s psychologically comforting, if nothing else."

An odd response, since it seems to assume atheists who convert were only atheists 'so-called'. I have seen a similar argument used by Christians to dismiss the authenticity of Christians who become atheists.

Speaking as an atheist who converted, I submit that there is nothing so-called in the matter, not for devoted, honest, serious atheists. These are men, and I was one such, who are atheists because belief in the supernatural they conclude to be unsupported, unreasonable, preposterous, or even sinister and sickminded. If there is some additional qualification to be counted a real atheist -- such as that one must never thereafter change one's mind on the point -- it is unknown to me.

The means by which a committed atheist comes to another conclusion would make an interesting study, but it is by no means clear that all conversions can be dismissed so lightly as to say no "real" atheist converts. Such an argument would be circular.

Again, speaking for myself, and perhaps for Mr. Lewis, I would hesitate to call the conversion experience psychologically comforting. Indeed, very much the opposite is the case: unlike my atheist self of yore, I am now beholden to a higher authority, who pins me to a standard of thought and deed very much against my nature and inclination.

I invite you to live as a self-centered and arrogant atheist for 35 years, wait until all your mental and emotional habits are set as if in concrete, and then try to obey the call to be charitable, loving, longsuffering, meek. Make the attempt for a day or a week, and then come back and tell me if it increases your comfort rather than the opposite. Tell me how comforting it is to long for the palm of martyrdom, or to rejoice at being reviled in public.

Contemplate the difference between living in a universe where death is merely oblivion, and one where death is a crossroad leading to something further: and the larger path, the easy one, leads to hellfire. If that is what you find comforting, your psychology differs indeed from mine. By any rational Pascalian wager, the universe where death is oblivion contains far less immense risks of far less pain.



(64 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]oscillon
2009-09-11 04:32 pm UTC (link)
"The president was indeed lying"
I haven't seen anything that backs up your claim. The outburst was in reaction to the statement about not covering illegal immagrants under his plan.
The only justification for this I've heard is that someday down the line, Obama will inevitably make them all legal and therefore the plan would cover them. Is it this absurd set of logic or is there something else I haven't heard?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]oscillon
2009-09-11 04:37 pm UTC (link)
p.s. Either way the outburst was wrong in that setting. Actually, I think this is a minor mistake the guy made. We all have done dumb things without thinking. I turned to my wife and said "we'll there's tommorow's headline". It's a shame it has turned into a distraction from the main issue.

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Where have you looked?
[info]johncwright
2009-09-11 05:33 pm UTC (link)
"I haven't seen anything that backs up your claim."

The President said the proposed socialized health care would not cover illegal aliens, whereas the house version of the bill (and I believe the Senate version also) contain a provision that says doctors and hospitals may not inquire as to the citizenship or residency status of the patient. Such mistakes are not made innocently: it was not a misstatement, but a transparent attempt to deceive, and on a matter where the public record is open to inspection.

The President also lied about whether the provisions of the bill cover prenatal infanticide, politely called abortions, but this was not what the Congressman was reacting to.

The President also lied about whether the trillion-dollar-plus plan would pay for itself -- but this type of lie is excusable and expected in politicians, who could not expand the size of government without fibbing about the cost. Unlike the other two lies, which are knowing lies, this one may be merely the President's lack of experience speaking. He has never run a business, had a job, or been in charge of any political bodies in his life, so he simply might not know that debts have to be paid. The local town mayor of West Desolate, Wisconsin, has more experience balancing a budget than the good Mr. Obama.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Where have you looked?
[info]gryphmon
2009-09-11 05:51 pm UTC (link)
He should have just booed as is customary. What is his next stunt? Throwing his shoe?

I will also point out that the congressman is a former officer in the National Guard, and he set a bad example for servicemembers regarding respect for the chain of command. I remember quite a few conservatives diparaging retired military servicmembers when they openly critisized President Bush when he was the sitting President and CIC.

That being said, the Congressman violated a tradition of courtesy, not a law or rule. I certainly wouldn't mind if our debates in Congress were more like the raucus fun that occurs in the English Parliment when the Prime Minister is there giving a speech.

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Brooks canes Butler - [info]johncwright, 2009-09-11 07:03 pm UTC
Re: Brooks canes Butler - [info]montecristo, 2009-09-11 08:20 pm UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]oscillon, 2009-09-11 07:40 pm UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]oscillon, 2009-09-11 06:24 pm UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]montecristo, 2009-09-11 07:26 pm UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]oscillon, 2009-09-11 08:10 pm UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]montecristo, 2009-09-11 08:26 pm UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]gryphmon, 2009-09-12 03:07 am UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]moditters, 2009-09-12 03:29 am UTC
Re: Where have you looked? - [info]oscillon, 2009-09-12 07:04 pm UTC

[info]vitruvian23
2009-09-11 04:46 pm UTC (link)
"No other portrayal of the inhabitors of the land of Faerie before Tolkien held this note of Sehnsucht,"

I'm not sure about that... I certainly get some of that feeling from Dunsany, and even to some degree from Barrie and Grahame (for what is the Neverland but another name for Faerie, and is Pan not also known as Puck?). I think Yeats and others also tried to convey something of the same sense in their retellings of the original folklore, and even moreso in Yeats' poetry specifically.

I will agree, though, that Tolkien might have been the first to make this quality a centrepiece of his vision of elves specifically, and that this has been massively influential.

(Reply to this)


[info]kokorognosis
2009-09-11 04:53 pm UTC (link)
I feel compelled to mention that, at least in the 24th century of the original continuity (Star Trek Prime, perhaps?), the Federation manufactured its starships on the Utopia Planitia of Mars. ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kokorognosis
2009-09-11 04:55 pm UTC (link)
Which is not Iowa, but does have the virtue of being not in orbit. Though I imagine that getting something as un-aerodynamic as the NCC-1701 into orbit would be awkward at best.

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(no subject) - [info]vitruvian23, 2009-09-11 05:06 pm UTC

[info]johncwright
2009-09-11 08:49 pm UTC (link)
You know even more Geek trivia about Star Trek than I. I doff my head and bow before your superior startrekifanficationishness.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2009-09-11 09:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]melodyv, 2009-09-14 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokorognosis, 2009-09-14 09:40 pm UTC

[info]marycatelli
2009-09-11 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Who has not longed to fly to the stars? What poet never dreamed to speak to the trees and rivers and hills, and learn their lore, or dance with the sun and moon, or wrap oneself in the shining galaxy as with a mantle, or peer into the thoughts of another, or live his life?

What robust man has not, if only briefly, entertained the longing to fight in the eternal melee of the never-slain in Valhalla, or possess the seventy-two glancing eyed houri of the paradise of Mohammed? What sage wearied with wisdom has not longed to quench his sorrows in the oblivion of Nirvana, and achieve unutterable Oneness? But these longings cannot be sated, even if one could chose somehow one's afterlife, for they are contrary to each other. There is no such thing as the Nirvana of Valhalla.

No, for my part, I can think of far too many longings I or others have never to be fulfilled to be comfortable with the conclusion that nature never implants vain longings in us.


never to be fulfilled? In this life perhaps. . . .

Also, it's possible that some of them are slightly misplaced. Let us say that John wants to live in a happy, fulfilled marriage and so wants to marry Jill. Even though, actually, marrying Jill would be the trip to misery.

By the same token, the desire for Nirvana is the desire for peace.

And in a comment, I don't feel like analyzing all the other possibilities.

(Reply to this)


[info]deiseach
2009-09-11 05:17 pm UTC (link)
"A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is more or less the Sindarin equivalent of the "Salve Regina" :-)

Regarding Utopia Planitia, it was my understanding that the vessels were constructed in orbit around Mars, while the base was located on the surface of the planet?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File:UtopiaPlanitiaFleetYards.jpg

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That fits
[info]montecristo
2009-09-11 08:58 pm UTC (link)
As a former Catholic myself, I think your observation about Tolkien's eleves and their hymn is spot on. I would also point out that Tolkien was himself Catholic and Salve Regina may have even been a primary influence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kokorognosis
2009-09-12 12:44 am UTC (link)
Oh, huh. Ah well, I pass the nerd crown bequeathed to me by John to you. Wear it proudly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Nope, it's yours by right - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-12 08:03 pm UTC
Courtesy
[info]gryphmon
2009-09-11 06:06 pm UTC (link)
"On Tuesday, not wise enough to leave well enough alone, I would have discussed whether or not the word “pervert” or “deviant” were derogatory swearwords in the sense that the word “nigger” is derogatory. Naturally, like a good lawyer, I would have rested my case on controlling authority, that is, I would have resorted to quoting the dictionary. (Short version: “nigger” is noted as being perhaps the most offensive term of opprobrium in the English language, according to current use, whereas “pervert” is not: the term carries opprobrium, but because of the thought the word represents, not because the word itself is slang or swearing..."

You know, I have always avoided calling you a flat-out bigot, preferring to use the more generic "prejudiced" to describe your opinions regarding gay and lesbian people. There is a difference after all between a man with ignorant bad ideas and an ignorant bad man.

But if you are going to be calling me "pervert" from this point forward, then perhaps I should reconsider that courtesy. But I'll probably stay on the high road.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Courtesy ?!
[info]johncwright
2009-09-11 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I am willing to use another term less painful to your ears, but you would have to assure me that the new term would not simply come to have the same implications as the old. I am not willing to play the "euphemism" game--that is a game rigged to favor the dishonest.

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Re: Courtesy ?! - [info]arhyalon, 2009-09-11 08:18 pm UTC
Re: Courtesy ?! - [info]gryphmon, 2009-09-12 03:17 am UTC
Re: Courtesy - discourtesy is a slippery issue
[info]montecristo
2009-09-11 08:05 pm UTC (link)
To accuse John of discourtesy when using a word like "pervert" is to fail to grasp his reasoning, whether you agree with it or not. "Perverse" is not meant in the sense of an epithet, but in the sense of homosexuality being contrary to nature. You can disagree with his judgement but I think it is erroneous to conflate the disagreement as being based in malice or contempt.

I think John has come to the conclusion that just because homosexuality is contrary to the nature of reproduction, which is obviously the case, in the specific, that it is contrary to nature, or human nature, in general. I wouldn't use the terms pervert or perversion myself because even though it is clear that homosexuality is contrary to reproduction I do not agree that it is necessarilly contrary to human nature itself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

What nature are we talking about? - [info]johncwright, 2009-09-16 06:15 pm UTC
Re: What nature are we talking about? - [info]montecristo, 2009-09-16 07:03 pm UTC
Re: What nature are we talking about? - [info]johncwright, 2009-09-17 03:50 pm UTC
Re: What nature are we talking about? - [info]montecristo, 2009-09-17 05:44 pm UTC

[info]baduin
2009-09-11 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Eddison had no sense of joy and loss?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ring/two/two39.htm

"All were silent awhile. Then the Lord Juss spake saying, "O Queen Sophonisba, hast thou looked ever, on a showery day in spring, upon the rainbow flung across earth and sky, and marked how all things of earth beyond it, trees, mountain-sides, and rivers, and fields, and woods, and homes of men, are transfigured by the colours that are in the bow?"

"Yes," she said, "and oft desired to reach them."

"We," said Juss, "have flown beyond the rainbow. And there we found no fabled land of heart's desire, but wet rain and wind only and the cold mountain-side. And our hearts are a-cold because of it."

The Queen said, "How old art thou, my Lord Juss, that thou speakest as an old man might speak?"

He answered, "I shall be thirty-three years old tomorrow, and that is young by the reckoning of men. None of us be old, and my brethren and Lord Brandoch Daha younger than I. Yet as old men may we now look forth on our lives, since the goodness thereof is gone by for us." And he said, "Thou O Queen canst scarcely know our grief; for to thee the blessed Gods gave thy heart's desire: youth for ever, and peace. Would they might give us our good gift, that should be youth for ever, and war; and unwaning strength and skill in arms. Would they might but give us our great enemies alive and whole again. For better it were we should run hazard again of utter destruction, than thus live out our lives like cattle fattening for the slaughter, or like silly garden plants."

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[info]johncwright
2009-09-11 08:54 pm UTC (link)
"Eddison had no sense of joy and loss?"

There is more to this Autumnal sense of which I speak than joy and loss. Eddison's heroes are granted the particularly Norse vision of paradise: unending youth and unending war. The end of the Worm Oroboros, where the tail of the tail is once again gripped in the teeth of war and alarum, the writers rewards his characters with Valhalla. Myself, I can think of no mood less delicate and twilight-hued than the gold of ensigns and the red of blood, the braying of trumpets and the screams of men and horses.

Here is one of the best expressions of the mood:

"Three times Randolph Carter dreamed of the marvelous city, and three times was he snatched away while still he paused on the high terrace above it. All golden and lovely it blazed in the sunset, with walls, temples, colonnades and arched bridges of veined marble, silver-basined fountains of prismatic spray in broad squares and perfumed gardens, and wide streets marching between delicate trees and blossom-laden urns and ivory statues in gleaming rows; while on steep northward slopes climbed tiers of red roofs and old peaked gables harbouring little lanes of grassy cobbles. It was a fever of the gods, a fanfare of supernal trumpets and a clash of immortal cymbals. Mystery hung about it as clouds about a fabulous unvisited mountain; and as Carter stood breathless and expectant on that balustraded parapet there swept up to him the poignancy and suspense of almost-vanished memory, the pain of lost things and the maddening need to place again what once had been an awesome and momentous place.

"He knew that for him its meaning must once have been supreme; though in what cycle or incarnation he had known it, or whether in dream or in waking, he could not tell. Vaguely it called up glimpses of a far forgotten first youth, when wonder and pleasure lay in all the mystery of days, and dawn and dusk alike strode forth prophetic to the eager sound of lutes and song, unclosing fiery gates toward further and surprising marvels."

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(no subject) - [info]baduin, 2009-09-12 10:26 am UTC
No, the term may be German, but the emotion is more fleeting - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-12 08:17 pm UTC
Re: No, the term may be German, but the emotion is more fleeting - [info]baduin, 2009-09-12 10:46 pm UTC
Let's blame Lewis! - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-13 10:18 am UTC
Re: Let's blame Lewis! - [info]baduin, 2009-09-13 01:39 pm UTC
Possible confusion here between the Celtic and Nordic senses of the emotion - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-13 09:13 pm UTC
Re: Possible confusion here between the Celtic and Nordic senses of the emotion - [info]baduin, 2009-09-14 11:33 pm UTC
Re: Possible confusion here between the Celtic and Nordic senses of the emotion - [info]baduin, 2009-09-14 11:36 pm UTC
That's a pretty fair summation - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-15 07:18 am UTC
Re: That's a pretty fair summation - [info]baduin, 2009-09-15 05:52 pm UTC
Yes, that's the irony of it - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-16 10:54 am UTC
Re: No, the term may be German, but the emotion is more fleeting - [info]baduin, 2009-09-12 10:58 pm UTC
Re: No, the term may be German, but the emotion is more fleeting - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-13 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2009-09-13 05:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]baduin, 2009-09-12 10:26 am UTC

[info]arhyalon
2009-09-11 07:56 pm UTC (link)
What about Aishwarya? Have you abandoned her. She has not been here in a while.

http://voyagesdel-imaginaire.m6blog.fr/images/medium_aishwarya_rai_025.jpg

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[info]annafirtree
2009-09-12 12:15 am UTC (link)
I think you do Lewis' logic a bit of a disservice. The examples you give are all specific applications of longings, where he spoke of broader categories.

So, for instance, Lewis might say that the longing of Romeo to marry Juliet does not prove that it is possible for Romeo to marry Juliet... but it does prove that such at thing as marriage exists.

So to take some of your examples... The longing to fly to the stars does not prove that it is possible to fly to the stars, but it does prove that exploration, adventure, and/or travel exist. The desire to speak to trees does not prove that it is possible to speak to trees, but it does show that there is such a phenomenon as speaking.

In the same way, the desire for Valhalla, houris, or Nirvana are all desires for specific versions of paradise, of completion. And as such, according to Lewis' logic, they show that there is such a thing as paradise, or completion.

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[info]johncwright
2009-09-13 04:56 am UTC (link)
"In the same way, the desire for Valhalla, houris, or Nirvana are all desires for specific versions of paradise, of completion. And as such, according to Lewis' logic, they show that there is such a thing as paradise, or completion. "

Or, in the alternate, it shows we have desires for things like exultation, and flying to the stars is a mental image I might just so happen to attribute to this thing, creating a false and impossible desire out of a combination of images of true and possible things: likewise, the desire for victory in combat is exaggerated to meaninglessness in the Norse desire for a paradise of war, and the desire to sexual congress exaggerated to meaninglessness in the luscious paradise imagined by Mohammed.

Lewis would have to make an argument to clearly show how this particular desire is not an combination or exaggeration of natural desires for possible things into an impossible desire whose satisfaction does not occur in nature, before he can show it is a naturally implanted desire for the supernatural. He has not sufficiently eliminated other possible explanations for the desire he names.

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(no subject) - [info]baduin, 2009-09-13 09:51 am UTC
If not impossible, so close to impossible that it might as well be - [info]johncwright, 2009-09-13 10:46 pm UTC
Ah! It has to be a *recognisable* desire! - [info]deiseach, 2009-09-14 06:04 pm UTC

[info]martinjt
2009-09-13 04:57 am UTC (link)
(Phone post)

YES! But even here I think you are too particular and not into categories enough. Lewis would say that Romeo's desire for Juliet and Dan's desire for Don show sex exist. The desire for travel shows motion is possible.

Keep in mind the desire must be something universal in man (or near enough). If you met someone who never had any sexual urge at all, was as inert as a brick, that person would be peculiar indeed and all would agree he is the excption to the human experience.

Homelessness, that I do not belong here, and hominess, that I cannot imagine anywhere else-though death will take me are two sides of the "we do not belong" coin. a man who truely feels that there is nothing more than the food in his stomach (this is the alternative to Lewis's man) is no man but an animal.

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[info]mrfingersnatch
2009-09-13 06:05 am UTC (link)
Lay your sleeping head, my love,
Human on my faithless arm;
Time and fevers burn away
Individual beauty from
Thoughtful children, and the grave
Proves the child ephemeral:
But in my arms till break of day
Let the living creature lie,
Mortal, guilty, but to me
The entirely beautiful.

Soul and body have no bounds:
To lovers as they lie upon
Her tolerant enchanted slope
In their ordinary swoon,
Grave the vision Venus sends
Of supernatural sympathy,
Universal love and hope;
While an abstract insight wakes
Among the glaciers and the rocks
The hermit's sensual ecstasy.

Certainty, fidelity
On the stroke of midnight pass
Like vibrations of a bell,
And fashionable madmen raise
Their pedantic boring cry:
Every farthing of the cost,
All the dreadful cards foretell,
Shall be paid, but not from this night
Not a whisper, not a thought,
Not a kiss nor look be lost.

Beauty, midnight, vision dies:
Let the winds of dawn that blow
Softly round your dreaming head
Such a day of sweetness show
Eye and knocking heart may bless.
Find the mortal world enough;
Noons of dryness see you fed
By the involuntary powers,
Nights of insult let you pass
Watched by every human love.

(Reply to this)


[info]lotdw
2009-09-14 01:06 am UTC (link)
Apropos of nothing in this thread, I just wanted to say that I recently purchased The Golden Age and Orphans of Chaos, and I am very much looking forward to reading them.

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[info]johncwright
2009-09-14 02:31 pm UTC (link)
Well, thank you. I hope they do not disappoint.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wyrdwood
2009-09-14 02:59 pm UTC (link)
Hope Mirrlee's Lud in the Mist has a scene that captures sehnsucht well. It's been a while since I read it, so I don't remember the character's name, but when he was young, he and some friends were going through an attic, and a lute (or maybe a guitar, don't remember which) falls and hits a single note. This note strikes deeply into the character's soul and gives him the yearning for Faerie that makes his life in this world for many years after one of dissatisfaction.

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