John C. Wright ([info]johncwright) wrote,
@ 2007-04-15 02:39:00
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Doubts about Iron Man
I have just been reading some of the original IRON MAN comics from Tales of Suspense, back when they were written by Stan Lee and illo'd by Gene Colin. To my surprise, I found out that Tony Stark was an arms manufacturer beloved by the American people, loyal to the government, and protected by agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. from the communist spies and saboteurs who kept trying to wreck his production or steal his secrets.
 
There was even an episode where he flies off to Viet Nam to help Our Fighting Men, who act like the same type of normal G.I.'s as we once saw in SGT. FURY comics. They were right guys, doing their duty. They were not psychopaths or bayoneters of babies. 
 
This was a strange sensation, a window into another time. It was reading entertainment from a day and age that had confidence, a nation whose spirit had not been broken by cowardice and defeatism.
 
Iron Man is one of my favorite Marvel characters, ranking beneath Captain America, but still pretty high up on my list. Consequently, I was delighted to hear that an Iron Man movie was in the works, and I had high hopes that it might be good. 

It could look Way Cool:


Iron Man, all jets ablaze, he fights and smites with Repulsor Rays!

Then I read an interview of Jon Favreau, the man behind the film. My anticipation cooled somewhat.
 
I think it starts off as the oblivious arms manufacturer who gets a huge dose of reality when he's taken into captivity and he's a hostage in Afghanistan. I think he starts to understand the ramifications of the way he's been living his life when he's exposed to that degree of reality and try to play that as real as possible.
 
Hmmm. Afghanistan, eh? I may be too suspicious, but I wonder what is meant by an "oblivious" arms manufacturer who "gets a dose of reality" and learns the "ramifications" etc. This does not sound good.
 
Look. Sometimes people "get" a certain character, and sometimes they don't. When Captain America was being beaten to a bloody pulp by Herr Colonel von Murder (or whoever it was) and asked to surrender, and Cap hauls himself painfully to his feet, eyes blazing, points to the giant white A on his helmet, and shouts "Surrender?! Do you think the A on my forehead stands for FRANCE?!" those guys who wrote that line got the character. They understood what he stood for. 


When Captain America throws his mighty shield,
All those who chose oppose his shield must yield!

I don't think anyone who portrays Tony Stark as an "oblivious" arms manufacturer rather than as a patriotic one "gets" the character, or understands what he stands for. As a symbol, Iron Man is invulnerable on the outside, a man of iron, but on the inside, all too human, wounded in his heart, weak, kept alive by high technology, and whenever he fights, the drain on his suit systems makes him run the risk of sudden death by cardiac arrest. Despite his looks and wealth and fame and women, his life hangs by a thread, and he suffers from typical Marvel superhero angst. 

Iron Man is a Cold Warrior, fighting the Titanium Man, who was a Commie thug, fergodsake. Are they going to take this character, the human symbol of American high-tech weapon superiority, and turn him into some sort of white flag waving dove?
 
Has everyone in Hollywood forgotten how to tell a story? If they made this film in India, not only would they have a highly melodramatic plot, include lavish singing and dancing numbers, and they'd get Aishwarya Rai to play Pepper Potts. It would rock the Casbah.  
 


Completely Gratuitous picture of Aishwarya Rai




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[info]dirigibletrance
2007-04-15 08:08 am UTC (link)
Have you read any of the recent, aweful "Civil War" comics?

There, Iron Man is portrayed as, basically, a fascist dictator from hell. The guys is the person who spearhead's the superhuman registration act and it's enforcement. (Which means forcibly drafting any and all superhumans, mutant or alien or super-genuis or otherwise, into government service, and imprisoning them if they refuse.)

The really bizarre thing is that the American people, in Civil War, pretty much support it wholeheartedly. I'm among the many Marvel fans who thinks that Civil War is probably the worst idea that Marvel's had in the last ten years, BTW. (Of course, the non-Civil-War titles, which are some of the X-men books, are pretty good right now. It's just all the CW ones that suck and have character acting completely contrary to how they've always been portrayed.)

I hold out hope for Thor's return, however. They've been dropping hints that, when he comes back (the real Thor, not the stupid SHIELD clone), he's going set everything right. Mostly with the business end of Mjolnir.

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[info]johncwright
2007-04-16 04:57 pm UTC (link)
"Have you read any of the recent, aweful "Civil War" comics?"

Nossir. I have heard so much bad rumor about them, that is seemed best to avoid. Captain America shot by a sniper? Good grief.

Now, I don't have anything against evil government conspiracy storylines (although it is in bad taste to write such things during wartime) and I don't have anything Marvel characters pulling a Marvel type dust-up where the good guys all wail on each other until the bad guy shows up. Its tradition.

But I do mind when friends of mine, for free, can come up with better takes on the story line than the author our comic-buying buck is paying comes up with. A friend of mine suggested that Captain America, a soldier (was he ever discharged from his unit? I mean, legally, if he was MIA and later on showed up alive?) would obey the US government right away, and that Tony Stark, the guy who never turned over the secret of his armor to the US Government, would disobey. The guys were on the wrong side.

I actually think the concept of "superpowers are dangerous, so there is a Sullivan Act style crackdown on Vigilantes--and some supers help the government and some help the vigilantes" is a good idea for a story. Look at how well this theme was handled in THE WATCHMAN or in the JLU cartoon with Project Cadmus. Captain Atom, a soldier, was duking it out with Superman, because he was under US government orders. It was Way Cool. But the execution in "Civil Wars" seemed poor, and the resolution seemed stupid beyond belief.

Cap shot by a sniper? I roll my eyes with much eye-rolling and I sigh a sighful sigh like unto exasperated Valley Girl saying "Whateverrrrr." A sniper? Unless the Red Skull pulled the trigger, I'm reading DC from now on.

I mean, jeez, why not just have Steve Rogers trip on the soap in the shower and fall and break his neck and drown in two inches of water in the bottom of the tub. Or have him get run over by a streetcar, or choke to death on a chickenbone? I mean, if you are going to kill off an iconic character with a stupid, Josh-Whedan-kills-Wash-style "chump" death, let's actually make him look like a chump when he dies.

I would feel a lot better about the comic if I did not have the sneaking suspicion that this is the writer's way of spitting on the American flag. I haven't read the thing, so this is only a suspicion, and maybe it is unworthy of me. I wonder if the writers know what to do with a super-patriot in a day and age when honest love of country is regarded as jingoism.

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[info]djmahon
2007-04-17 04:40 am UTC (link)
</i>I would feel a lot better about the comic if I did not have the sneaking suspicion that this is the writer's way of spitting on the American flag.</i>

That might be more true of the stand-alone comic Civil War-Frontline, where a journalist accused Cap of "next to nothing about [America]" because he didn't know what MySpace was, or who the last winner of American Idol.

It had the first time I ever wanted to break down the Fourth Wall from my side, and strangle a comic book character.

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Fah! Where's the blasted edit button! - [info]djmahon, 2007-04-18 01:10 am UTC

[info]baron_waste
2007-04-15 09:10 am UTC (link)

No... I could see it. If you're fighting the Nazis, that's one thing. Then you need all the armament your heavy industries can produce, because the Wehrmacht beat the US Army stupid whenever they met on anything close to equal terms. Besides, they're Nazis, man - they're evil.

But the Nazis were a long time ago - and if you want to talk evil, it's hard to avoid labelling the people who make money by selling arms to viciously corrupt governments who use them against their own people, or simply make them available to the combatants - Bronze-Age conflicts being fought with 21st century arms.

Including land mines, which stay hidden until someone sets them off - fifteen years later, maybe, when someone who wasn't even born then steps too far off the path one peaceful sunny day and gets his legs blown off. Just like that.

It doesn't take much seeing the results of your product to make you change your attitude towards it.

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[info]starshipcat
2007-04-15 02:56 pm UTC (link)
I think an arms manufacturer would make a more unalloyed hero if the manufacture of weapons represented a genuine self-sacrifice for the companies involved, rather than a major profit source.

However, one of the great strengths of Marvel's storytelling has always been the complexity of their heroes. They're not little plaster saints, but deeply flawed people who happen to have an extraordinary ability, and whose flaws often lead them astray, or even just to do the right thing for all the wrong reasons. Would Tony Stark have been as interesting a character if he had been a perfect paragon of Truth, Justice and the American Way, never behaving selfishly even in his private life, let alone in his superheroing?

For me, the attraction of Marvel's superheros lay in that tension between the selfish and the selfless within the hearts of so many of them. They had to actually struggle to do the right thing, instead of it just coming automatically the way it did for so many DC superheroes. That struggle made them seem more human, and the storytelling more mature.

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[info]jordan179
2007-04-15 11:40 pm UTC (link)
But the Nazis were a long time ago ...

However, Communist dictatorships were going strong from 1946 through 1989, and the Terrorist States aren't exactly the good guys.

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(Anonymous)
2007-04-16 11:58 am UTC (link)
I don't think most American arms manufacturers would feel much moral guilt for the Soviet use of land mines.

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[info]jordan179
2007-04-16 03:42 pm UTC (link)
The left-wing dogma is that all arms come from America, or at least the West. This applies even when a cursory examination of the weapons would clearly show otherwise: for instance, Saddam Hussein's armed forces. Saddam's forces were equipped mostly with T-72's and MiG's, yet the point is repeated again and again the "we armed Saddam." (the truth is that we sent some weapons to Saddam, in the 1980's, but Saddam mostly got his supplies from Russia and France).

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(no subject) - [info]mrmandias, 2007-04-16 07:23 pm UTC
Hulk Smash Civil War!
[info]rhystuck
2007-04-15 09:38 am UTC (link)
The Hulk was pretty pissed at the trickery to get him off planet, so when the Planet Hulk storyline finishes(Probably the best thing Marvel is doing at the moment, read Planet Hulk instead of any Civil War nonsense), my bet is that the Civil War will end with the Hulk pretty much beating the crap out of everybody.

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[info]gillen
2007-04-15 10:13 am UTC (link)
I can only assume that you either stopped reading Iron Man really early or you only read the character's introductory issues before the first retcon.



Tony Stark in the mid-70s, the Iron Man of my childhood, was a lonely, violent, sexist, hypocritical alcoholic and socially-unreformed 1970's Catholic male with a taste for redemption through self-harm... and power suit that fed his fantasies.



Now Cap? Sure, you can claim Captain America as the patriotic paragon all you want. The guy literally wears the flag, so whaddya gonna do? But Iron Man has for decades been Marvel's take on the dark side of superheroing. Tony Stark was a guy who would down a bottle of scotch, slap his girlfriend around, freak out about what a horrible person he was and then to make up for it all put on the powersuit and go out to beat some underpowered guy in spandex almost (and sometimes all the way) to death for breaking and entering.



Granted, in the past decade they've remade him into a former-alcoholic, metrosexual fascist with an obsession with stripping Peter Parker naked and subjecting him to "experiments". And now he'll be played by Robert Downey Jr. But I'm not sure that's one you really want to see on the silver screen either. And remember, Cap hates Iron Man these days - well, until he died, anyway.

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[info]johncwright
2007-04-16 04:05 pm UTC (link)
I said: "I have just been reading some of the original IRON MAN comics from Tales of Suspense, back when they were written by Stan Lee and illo'd by Gene Colin."

You said: "I can only assume that you either stopped reading Iron Man really early or you only read the character's introductory issues before the first retcon."

So, yes, I am talking about the original Iron Man here, not the drunk from the 70's. I read some of the issues where Rhodes donned the armor, including one where the Mandarin unmasks him and is surprised to find Iron Man is a black guy: those issues were fairly well done, and had some nice draftsmanship. There was some ideas in that story arc that are the kind of thing that sounds good in the abstract, but weren't really satisfying to me as a reader, such as Rhodes slowly coming to hate his boss.

In any case, for my money the symbolism and paradox of the original character has greater story-telling potential.

My thought here is that when you're making a movie, you usually want to go back to the original character concept, the one that gave the character his hold on the readers' imagination to begin with.

But that is just my take on it. Me, I'm old fashioned. If I were making a Hawkman movie, for example, I'd making him a reincarnated Egyptian prince rather than a Thanagarian policeman. If I were making Captain America, I'd set it during WWII. If I were making KING KONG, I would not make the big ape a misunderstood good guy, or have a scene where the actress who cannot replace Fay Wray tries to stop the Sopwith Camels from firing.

Now, in all fairness, the Hollywood guys probably have a better thumb on the pulse of the world-wide movie going public than I do: you see, I used to WORK for Northrup Grumman. Northrup Grumman is the real-world version of Stark Enterprises, we are a major arms manufacturer, and our work product is what keeps the West free. Soldiers can't shoot bad guys without guns, folks.

And Northrop Grumman makes some badass guns, believe you me. My company has a division devoted to building giant spacebourne lasers, ferchrissake: I think Yankee know-how and high-tech wonders are the cat's freaking pajamas. Does your company have a giant spacebourne laser cannon? Even Ming of Mongo does not have a giant spacebourne laser cannon. Iron Man, to me, is a symbol of American technological might: superpowerful but weak at heart.

So Iron Man might mean something to me he does not mean to the rest of the world. I think the American military is the most potent force for good in this world since the British Navy, and my attitude toward the factories that keep them supplied with the most awe inspiring armaments history has ever known is reflected in the early version of Iron Man. Those early comics fit my preconceptions in a way that this movie, made for the tastes of a modern movie might not fit.

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[info]mrmandias
2007-04-16 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Amen.

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[info]headnoises
2007-04-17 03:32 am UTC (link)
My company has a division devoted to building giant spacebourne lasers, ferchrissake: I think Yankee know-how and high-tech wonders are the cat's freaking pajamas. Does your company have a giant spacebourne laser cannon? Even Ming of Mongo does not have a giant spacebourne laser cannon.

*giggles like the fangirl she is* I love stuff like that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_nX6z-qs might clean the taste out of your mouth, too-- WHY did they not make this a movie? Why did they not get the guy who did Nighty in this one for the Nightcrawler in the movie? Captain is pissed off and taking names-- love it.

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(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2007-04-17 06:45 pm UTC

[info]gillen
2007-04-17 05:16 am UTC (link)
My thought here is that when you're making a movie, you usually want to go back to the original character concept, the one that gave the character his hold on the readers' imagination to begin with.

I don't know about "usually". If I were to go to a Dr. Who movie I would hope it would be about a Time Lord from Gallifrey, not an elderly man who had cobbled together a time machine in his back yard. Characters like these exist to express our current thoughts back to us in a way that makes them seem timeless. The original Iron Man would be a relic today, good for a storyline about how the failure to adapt dooms one to irrelevance but not much more.

The Golden Age is that which sees the genesis of archetypes, but it is the Silver Age that tunes and defines their meaning. There may be a vitality to the creation fresh from the fires of the forge, but it is not until it cools, is burnished and mounted in context that it shows its true nature.

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Good point. - [info]johncwright, 2007-04-17 06:48 pm UTC

[info]rhystuck
2007-04-15 10:14 am UTC (link)
Here's the marvel link for WORLD WAR HULK!

HULK SMASH EVERYBODY!

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[info]fpb
2007-04-15 06:37 pm UTC (link)
I am not happy to hear that the idiot American jingo shit about France got to Captain America. This was once a character who stood against all kinds of bigotry. In fact, he was a favourite of mine. Now if being for America means being against anything that the more ignorant stratum of American society happens not to understand (after all, the French don't speak English, so they must be some sort of throwback), then I am afraid that a lot of people have a lot of learning to do, and it will be long, nasty and lonely. Do you want to know why anti-Americanism prevails in Europe? Just show us trash like that, and then work it out.

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[info]superversive
2007-04-15 09:49 pm UTC (link)
There’s a reason why the Americans are anti-French, too, you know. It has something to do with only recently discovering that France was not an ally, as they ignorantly thought, but a covert enemy for a good many years.

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(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2007-04-16 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-04-16 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2007-04-16 07:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-16 10:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-04-16 06:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-16 10:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]baduin, 2007-04-16 12:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-16 12:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]baduin, 2007-04-16 02:19 pm UTC

[info]johncwright
2007-04-16 03:24 pm UTC (link)
The guys who wrote the scene claimed that Cap here is reflecting a 1940's attitude of American G.I.'s who came to bail out the French people after the French government surrendered to the Nazis.

Me, A glance at history shows that America owes its very existance to France (see, for example, the surrender of Wellington at Yorktown), not to mention the Statue of Liberty, and so on. We've never been at war with France, and have always been on the same sides in World Wars and in Southeast Asia.

France is not that popular in America right now, but France has to look after their own national self-interest, not American popularity. Now, it just so happens that French self-interest was tied into helping Saddam maintain a corrupt oil-for-bribes system that involved the highest levels of the French government, and so they did a dishonorable thing. America has just as much right to persue her national self-interest, and, in this case, acting for the benefit of all of Western Civilization.

So if France wants to act selfishly and short-sightedly rather than on the side of Western Civilization, they can afford to talk a little gentle ribbing from their allies in a comic book. To call a jest at the expense of a friendly nation bigotry is a little hasty.

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[info]ladislaw
2007-04-16 08:58 pm UTC (link)
In fairness to the character (and for the purposes of clarifying a confusion in John's original post), that ain't Captain America. It's the Captain America from the "Ultimates" storyline, a far more rigid and self-righteous guy than the one most of us are familiar with. And after he shouts the "France" line, someone says to him something about that being over the top, and he agrees.

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[info]headnoises
2007-04-17 03:36 am UTC (link)
Go ask a vet of WWII what they thought of the French, especially if they fought there. I've yet to hear a kind word.

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(no subject) - [info]gillen, 2007-04-17 05:21 am UTC

[info]baron_waste
2007-04-15 07:10 pm UTC (link)

When Captain America was being beaten to a bloody pulp by Herr Colonel von Murder (or whoever it was) and asked to surrender, and Cap hauls himself painfully to his feet, eyes blazing

With a name like "Herr Colonel von Murder," I'm assuming the story you're describing to be set during World War II. Is that correct - or is it present day?

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[info]agrumer
2007-04-15 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Nah, it was in an issue of The Ultimates, which is basically the Avengers set in Marvel's "Ultimate" continuity, separate from the regular Marvel continuity. It's got about the same relationship to the regular Marvel continuity that the new Battlestar Galactica series has to the old one.

If I remember correctly (which I may very well not), the scene in question was Cap fighting an alien invader, not a Nazi.

And while it's a funny line, the thing about France, I think Captain America, who fought alongside the French resistance in WW2, would probably have more respect for the French than a modern American neoconservative.

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(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-15 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2007-04-15 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-15 11:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2007-04-16 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-04-16 04:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2007-04-16 07:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-16 10:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dirigibletrance, 2007-04-16 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]johncwright, 2007-04-16 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-16 10:02 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-25 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]superversive, 2007-04-25 09:30 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 09:15 pm UTC

[info]johncwright
2007-04-16 03:26 pm UTC (link)
No, no his name was not really von Murder. I can't remember what it was: this was an alien disguised as a Nazi helping them with their V-1 and V-2 rocket programme. It was set during World War II, just after the collapse of the French to the Nazis.

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[info]jordan179
2007-04-15 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm. Afghanistan, eh? I may be too suspicious, but I wonder what is meant by an "oblivious" arms manufacturer who "gets a dose of reality" and learns the "ramifications" etc. This does not sound good.

Nor does it make much sense to have someone express his antiwar sentiments by building and fighting in a super-powerful suit of powered armor. The original concept -- that Stark had built the armor to fight the Reds -- was far more logical.

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[info]johncwright
2007-04-17 07:06 pm UTC (link)
I am not sure if the audience would go for Iron Man fighting the Reds in the modern world. I mean, I'd love to see a movie where the Golden Avenger flies down to Cuba, cuts of the head of the archmurderer Casto with a repulsor ray blast, and frees all the journalists and students in jail there, then nips over to North Korea to duke it out with the Glorious Leader with his A-Bomb: but in the middle of a terror-war with the Paynims, it would seem a bit off unhep and out of synch with the times.

Now, I read in the same interview that Iron Man is fighting The Mandarin in the film, which is an idea I really like. I've always had a soft spot in my heart for evil super-scientists, and the D&D player in me likes the idea of wearing ten magic rings (taken from a crashed spaceship, no less!--Hal Jordan only got one lousy ring with a defect in it). But the comic makes it clear that The Mandarin is not a Red, in fact, he is an enemy of the Maoist government, because he is, well, a mandarin.

If they keep Mandarin as a villain, I'll go see the movie even if it sucks.

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